82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
@Crutch... I'm not sure what to say about your assertion that it is "bad writing." Other than to respond: Yes, it is

Sure it is. Half-assed bad writing, scribbes on a paper just for the sake of doing it and hopefully shutting the fanboys up, but not some scheme to ruin their own creation. For that, see the RGB.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Sure it is. Half-assed bad writing, scribbes on a paper just for the sake of doing it and hopefully shutting the fanboys up, but not some scheme to ruin their own creation. For that, see the RGB.

Actually, both are the same. They thought they were being really clever and groundbreaking when they wrote those endings. It wasn't a "scheme" or a "vendetta" or a "conspiracy," etc., etc. in either case.

In both cases, they just screwed up in a big way. A bigger way in the case of the endings, of course. But it's the same basic idea. Bad writing, call it what you will.

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 10:30 .

[jtav]

Not ruin, but it's pretty clear someone on the team bought into the very clichés we praised Miranda for subverting. Remember our intense debates over the betrayal line? I don't think that was supposed to be divisive. I think it was supposed to be a universal stand up and cheer moment. They don't see it as destruction; they see it as redemption.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Actually, both are the same. They thought they were being really clever and groundbreaking when they wrote those endings.

As horrible as the RGB is I can see how some incomprehensibly weird mind might see it as some innane artistic... thing. But you can't possibly view Miranda's role as anything other than some thrown-together recycled ME2 material paper ball. There is no plan besides "let's get this over with and move on to something else."

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Not ruin, but it's pretty clear someone on the team bought into the very clichés we praised Miranda for subverting. Remember our intense debates over the betrayal line? I don't think that was supposed to be divisive. I think it was supposed to be a universal stand up and cheer moment. They don't see it as destruction; they see it as redemption.

I dunno. I mean, yes, somebody really pushed for sticking to a certain cliché with Miranda.

But that line itself... I understand the problems some people have with it. But really, given what TIM plans to do with the base, it's not hard at all for me to imagine Miranda leaving Cerberus at that point and opposing TIM in ME3.

There's so much more that had to be done to the character for it to really become a problem (see the LotSB dossier).

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Not ruin, but it's pretty clear someone on the team bought into the very clichés we praised Miranda for subverting. Remember our intense debates over the betrayal line? I don't think that was supposed to be divisive. I think it was supposed to be a universal stand up and cheer moment. They don't see it as destruction; they see it as redemption.

No it isn't. What we have is evidence of poor worksmanship, not intentional sabotage or even misguided changes for percieved improvement. I use words like scheme and conspiracy and you think I'm referencing negative intent. I'm not. I'm saying there is no intent beyond just rushing through to do something else.

[jtav]

@flemm True, but the reason I went into war mode every time the subject was brought up was that I was scared something like this would happen, that they would overplay their hand. But my larger point was that the very traits we loved her for were the traits we were supposed to repudiate. Miranda now being focused on something wholesome like her sister as opposed to that nasty human domination stuff is supposed to be a good thing.

Modifié par jtav, 31 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
No it isn't. What we have is evidence of poor worksmanship, not intentional sabotage or even misguided changes for percieved improvement. I use words like scheme and conspiracy and you think I'm referencing negative intent. I'm not. I'm saying there is no intent beyond just rushing through to do something else.

I think that idea is really hard to sustain, and, what's more, I'm sure the writers wouldn't even try to sustain it. Implementation was rushed, yes, but there is a thought-process here that is more than a year old. This is not something that was thought out this past fall. The early story drafts that were leaked both have the basic outline for Sanctuary, even though most of the rest of the game is missing, including the earlier conversations with Miranda.

The non-Sanctuary stuff suggests there may have been an attempt to pull back a bit from the original concept. But the "no intent" excuse just doesn't fly.

jtav wrote...
Miranda now being focused on something wholesome like her sister as opposed to that nasty human domination stuff is supposed to be a good thing.

Well, yeah, but what about all the dialogue in ME2 about Humanity's STG, the achievements of the Asari, etc.? Somebody had a more nuanced view of the character at some point.

There had to be a conscious decision to jettison a lot of the complexity that we see at work in ME2 (maybe when it was decided to paint Cerberus, and everything associated with it, as irredeemably evil).

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[jtav]

And what's more, those earliest drafts have Miranda as even more of a victim. She was a straight up damsel in distress being held prisoner by her father and who nearly got fed to a Reaper.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
I think that idea is really hard to sustain, and, what's more, I'm sure the writers wouldn't even try to sustain it. Implementation was rushed, yes, but there is a thought-process here that is more than a year old. This is not something that was thought out this past fall. The early story drafts that were leaked both have the basic outline for Sanctuary, even though most of the rest of the game is missing, including the earlier conversations with Miranda.

The non-Sanctuary stuff suggests there may have been an attempt to pull back a bit from the original concept. But the "no intent" excuse just doesn't fly.

Ugh.. I get the feeling repetition is starting to set in. Remember how I said that planned stuff wasn't proof of disassociation with resources because planning means in part deciding how those resources are going to be spent? Yeah, that.

Basically Bioware decided a year ago that they didn't feel like focusing on Miranda more than rehashing the Oriana plot which was the quickest and easiest way of getting sympathy for that character. And that's all they did. Mission accomplished. Then when the complaints started coming in they threw in the rest of the stuff to try and appease us. Clearly it wasn't enough.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 31 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Nightwriter]

Actually now that I think on it, if I were going to PAX, I doubt I'd go into great depth about how I wanted Miranda's character to be handled. Every single ME2 LI thread has gone into great detail about why they were disappointed, what they wanted instead, and how they felt that what they got didn't do their favorite character justice. I doubt I could sum all that up, or do it justice, at a convention.

I think all I would say is that it is extremely disappointing and alienating for BioWare to play favorites to such a degree in the final installment, the last chance the ME2 character fans will ever get with these characters. Yes, we understand that not every romance is created equal, and not everyone can be a squadmate -- but it is inexpressibly lame to get such meager, unsatisfying content with your LI while such care and attention is being lavished on the ME1 characters. I think I would have been able to stand the small amount of content I got with Miranda if the ME1 LI content hadn't been so outstanding and so hard for me to ignore. Easier to be hungry when the person beside you isn't being served a feast.

I don't need to tell them how to repair the damage. I'd just like to tell them I think the damage is there, and I'd like them to devote attention to it. I'm reasonably confident that if they do turn their attention on it, the results will be satisfactory.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 31 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[flemm]

Well, Nightwriter, I think you should send those thoughts to Visii in a PM, well put ;-)


@Crutch, the LotSB dossier allowed jtav to basically predict all the problems with Miranda's characterisation in ME3 point by point prior to any information about the script being leaked. Some, including even myself, tended to see her fears as overblown. Actually they were 100% accurate for the most part.

Mostly they were along the lines of what I articulated on the previous page in a more systematic fashion.

Also, ask yourself: what the hell was the point of the dossier otherwise lol?

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 11:08 .

[ThomGau]

PAX should be interesting, it's the first time Bioware will publicly speak post-release. This will be fun.

[CrutchCricket]

Realistically, you can't expect much. Still I am anxious to see how it all goes down.
In other news going off topic for a bit. Was it just me or did they say they fixed the face import issue? I downloaded an update a couple of days ago but it still messes up.

[Nightwriter]

flemm wrote...

Well, Nightwriter, I think you should send those thoughts to Visii in a PM, well put ;-)

I dunno. All I really said there was, "Please fix it." I'm not sure that's a unique sentiment, or one worth adding, since it's bound to be stated anyway.

[ThomGau]

Sure we can't expect much but it's another opportunity to let our voices be heard.
I imagine the exchange between the fans and the developers will be very distant and cold, with a lot of questions from one part and a lot of non-answers from the other. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[jtav]

I do think it was Cerberus that doomed her, but even then she should have been salvageable. Give her Brynn's role, like Doctor said. She personally recruited these brilliant minds into Cerberus, and now she has to see them safe. Heck, you could even stick Ori there. Either she's with Miranda or Miranda instructed a message to be delivered after her death giving Ori a safe place to go. Have Kai Leng and co show up here with the intent to kill or capture as many of the scientists as he can. He corners Miranda, who engages him in battle as a delay tactic (she knows she'll lose) while you see the refugees evacuated. If Miranda is loyal, she survives but is wounded and no longer in fighting shape. But she's smiling because she wasn't just delaying Leng for your benefit: if you managed to upload tracking software into his navigation system. Back on the Normandy, she expresses her gratitude to Shepard, but admits it will never be over until TIM is dead. She berates herself from her blindness. Shepard comforts her, and a romance scene occurs.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

I do think it was Cerberus that doomed her, but even then she should have been salvageable. Give her Brynn's role, like Doctor said. She personally recruited these brilliant minds into Cerberus, and now she has to see them safe. Heck, you could even stick Ori there. Either she's with Miranda or Miranda instructed a message to be delivered after her death giving Ori a safe place to go. Have Kai Leng and co show up here with the intent to kill or capture as many of the scientists as he can. He corners Miranda, who engages him in battle as a delay tactic (she knows she'll lose) while you see the refugees evacuated. If Miranda is loyal, she survives but is wounded and no longer in fighting shape. But she's smiling because she wasn't just delaying Leng for your benefit: if you managed to upload tracking software into his navigation system. Back on the Normandy, she expresses her gratitude to Shepard, but admits it will never be over until TIM is dead. She berates herself from her blindness. Shepard comforts her, and a romance scene occurs.

This sounds better but, what about her father?

[jtav]

Honestly? If it were me, I'd have just killed him on Earth. It's the way her memory of him haunts her that's important more so than the man himself.

[cg8900]

random thought here
I was just watching some vids from me2, and miranda does say if you try to romance someone else, that "...every one on this ship needs to know that you're mine"
now that means she isn't that private about her realtionship right? so a kiss on the first meeting at cidadel wouldn't have hurt at all

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Honestly? If it were me, I'd have just
killed him on Earth. It's the way her memory of him haunts her that's
important more so than the man himself.

That seems a little weak to me, jtav. Considering how much her father was brought up in ME2. Though, looking at what you wrote earlier, I can't see him coming there in person for a confrontation.  Perhaps a death offscreen would be better in that case.

----------------------------------------------------------
IMO I'd rather keep Jacob's mission as is and expand on Miranda's role in Sanctuary.
Then have her on the ship (much like you did with Mordin/Wrex/etc) after that until TIM's base where she can say a few thoughts as you go through the facility and then to TIM himself.

Problem is that's a lot of work for someone who can be dead going into ME3

-------------------------------------------------------------
This is why my original idea was that for ME2 during the SM: She would die if Shepard dies (much like Liara does if your EMS is low in ME3), that way the writers could have more breathing room, so to speak, to implement her in ME3 proper. As a scientist (with ideals and goals  -- remember she wanted a human STG), a combatant, and someone who cares for her sister deeply. Each in equal parts.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 31 mars 2012 - 11:30 .

[jtav]

I actually had what I think is a neat idea for an LM rewrite. May I share?

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

I actually had what I think is a neat idea for an LM rewrite. May I share?

You mean ME2 LM? Sure.

I have a feeling you'd kill Henry Lawson off there.
Actually, that would have been nice to have happen, tbh

EDIT: Though, that would be too similar to Jacobs LM (if you chose that option)

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 31 mars 2012 - 11:43 .

[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...

Honestly? If it were me, I'd have just killed him on Earth. It's the way her memory of him haunts her that's important more so than the man himself.

This would've robbed me of a conclusion to an established plotline.

Oriana shouldn't have been Miranda's sole focus in ME3, but it doesn't mean we should throw away the confrontation with her father altogether.

As it is, the confrontation we do get is pretty unsatisfying.

[Vertigo_1]

Nightwriter wrote...

jtav wrote...

Honestly? If it were me, I'd have just killed him on Earth. It's the way her memory of him haunts her that's important more so than the man himself.

This would've robbed me of a conclusion to an established plotline.

Oriana shouldn't have been Miranda's sole focus in ME3, but it doesn't mean we should throw away the confrontation with her father altogether.

As it is, the confrontation we do get is pretty unsatisfying.

I'd sacrifice a prior meeting w/ Shepard to get a good confrontation with her and Henry
Would be nice to get one with TIM too...

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 31 mars 2012 - 11:48 .