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[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...

Because she isn't Normandy crew.

I can live with her romance content. I just want her to give a crap about something that isn't her sister or Shepard. I want the woman who wanted to belong to humanity's STG back. I'm dreadful with letter writing. But that's what I want. I loved--love-- Miranda for her mind, for being a positive example of ambition.

Um, there is a romance scene in an apartment. Nothing that happened with Liara on the Normandy couldn't have happened in that bed in the apartment. Shepard's quarters aren't the only place that sex scenes can happen. In fact, Miranda proved that to us quite effectively in ME2.

That's another thing -- I was hoping for some clarification about the engine room. After the quizzical fan reaction it got, I almost expected them to jokingly address it or offer up some kind of explanation.

[Vertigo_1]

What do you guys think about this? I'm planning to add it to what I had before for the PAX letter:

There's no real contribution tied to her being alive in the game. Everyone else seems to have something attached to their survival.  From Zaeed and his mercs to Jack's students and even Kasumi helping the Crucible project by stealing tech for them.  Even those that died contributed: Legion, Thane and Mordin gave their lives to secure a better future for others. Miranda has nothing going for her. The tracer has no real effect (no real change in war assets; no difference between the fleet getting the jump on Cerberus or not). There's nothing about Sanctuary after that. Both her and her sister just leave.

I think it would have been better to have her as a liaison during the Cronos mission. She was there in the opening cutscene of Mass Effect 2 in his base, why not have her there at that mission? My point is: Miranda has to be about something more than just saving her sister.  Having worked for Cerberus for most of her life and even reaching as high as Second in Command in the organization (she says this herself in the game). She also believed in human advancement in Mass Effect 2 and humanity's version of the STG. Nothing came of it in 3.

Only asking because I wonder if I missed anything or something doesn't sound right. It's 11PM here and I'm multitasking atm

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[flemm]

Nightwriter wrote...

Um, there is a romance scene in an apartment. Nothing that happened with Liara on the Normandy couldn't have happened in that bed in the apartment. Shepard's quarters aren't the only place that sex scenes can happen. In fact, Miranda proved that to us quite effectively in ME2.

Well, I don't think jtav meant it would have been impossible, but moreso that they just didn't implement anything elaborate for anyone not on the Normandy. That's not where they allotted their resources.

I'd like to see that change, obviously. Though actualy for me dialogue and story are more important. I'd rather some "pillow talk," for example, than a long animated love scene. Though both would obviously be ideal.

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

What do you guys think about this? I'm planning to add it to what I had before:

*snip*

Only asking because I wonder if I missed anything or something doesn't sound right. It's 11PM here and I'm multitasking atm

I think that's great, Vertigo. Of course, we can't individually say everything. But hopefully together we can get the point across.

I'm going to revise my letter and post it here also.

Modifié par flemm, 04 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@ Nightwriter

Bioware really wants you to romance Liara. I did a no romance import and the game was really trying to tell me something

As for the letter:

Dear Bioware Developers/Mass Effect 3 writers,

I've played the Mass Effect series since the first game and found that the world you've worked long and hard to create is one of the most compelling science fiction universes in recent memory. The characters you've created are memorable, but how some of them are handled in Mass Effect 3 aren't up to the standards that you set in the previous games.

Miranda Lawson for instance, lacks the same ambition that she had in Mass Effect 2. There she was a character who supported Cerberus because she believed that humanity could become more than it already was, that we could work towards a civilization that could take it's place on the galactic stage. That ambition was tempered with a more human side which was shown with her relationship with her sister.

Mass Effect 3 brings Miranda back, but this time we're only shown the side of Miranda that cares for her sister. Cerberus' change from a morally ambiguous organization to an antagonist is a major one, and given that Miranda had worked with them for her entire adult life one would expect her to have an opinion of what happened to them. Instead that ambition and desire to see human civilization advance that we saw in ME2 wasn't there in ME3. Miranda's relationship with Cerberus and the ideals that they represent is a major part of her character, without that she's not the same individual I fell in love with.

- Chris

[enayasoul]

Nice posts you guys/gals! Dr. Doctor and Vertigo! You touched on things I missed. Good.

Modifié par enayasoul, 04 avril 2012 - 03:52 .

[flemm]

enayasoul wrote...

Nice posts you guys/gals! Dr. Docter and Vertigo! You touched on things I missed. Good.

Agreed. I hope both of those make their way over to Visii for PAX

[Vertigo_1]

And here's my motivation for that post (was browsing youtube while typing that up):

A comment on this video www.youtube.com/watch

Jack: I am training biotics that can help me in this war
Jacob: I defend scientists who can help with the crucible
Zaeed: I've got some merc contacts, you know...
Thane: I save the salarian councillor.
Legion: I sacrifice myself to make the geth fully self-aware to help you
Mordin: I sacrifice myself to cure the genophage
Kasumi: I steal Cerberus-tech for the Crucible
Samara: I kick ass in the front lines
Grunt: I command kickass Krogan
Miranda: SHEPARD OMFG COME QUICK! MY SISTER! IMPORTANT!!!

It has 219 likes...219.  Sad thing is that as I read this and think about it...it's all true.  Where does she fit in?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...


It has 219 likes...219.  Sad thing is that as I read this and think about it...it's all true.  Where does she fit in?

Yeah, it's such a glaring omission. I am not pleased

[MisterJB]

That person forgot to mention that Miranda shut down one of the most important Cerberus facilities in the galaxy thus, saving the lives of the refugees who would take shelter at Sanctuary and of those who would be murdered by Cerberus soldiers.


Anyway, just sent my letter to Visii. Hope it makes a difference.

Edit: To clarify, I am not happy with her role but Sanctuary is still the best ME2 Character Mission in the game due to the simple fact of it being a Priority Mission.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 avril 2012 - 03:48 .

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

That person forgot to mention that Miranda shut down one of the most important Cerberus facilities in the galaxy thus, saving the lives of the refugees who would take shelter at Sanctuary and of those who would be murdered by Cerberus soldiers.

While what you say is technically true, it's a sign of how weak the writing/implementation is that it doesn't come across that way.

Also, I was going to point out previously as well, in contradiction to the YouTube comment, she does it mostly on her own (though she asks for Alliance resources that... don't do anything? Again... what???). Still, it manages to feel like basically a retread of the loyalty mission.

And the fact remains that the writers don't give Miranda anything to do at the beginning, and nothing to do at the end. So when she momentarily stumbles upon something significant along the way it doesn't erase the general impression of pointlessness.

Anyway, I know we're in agreement on this, I just think it bears repeating.

Modifié par flemm, 04 avril 2012 - 03:51 .

[MisterJB]

Most likely because while what she does is very important. Her motivation appear to solely be Oriana.
Saying something like:

"I think I might have a lead on the source of The Illusive Man's seemingly endless supply of troops. If I can locate it, we have a real chance to take Cerberus out of this war.
I wish I could come with you, Shepard. But you have to stay focused on the Reapers.
Cerberus...Cerberus is my responsability."

Rather than:
"Oriana is missing. I need to find her"

Would have made all the difference, IMO.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[Vertigo_1]

MisterJB wrote...

Most likely because while what she does is very important. Her motivation appear to solely be Oriana.
Saying something like:

"I think I might have a lead on the source of The Illusive Man's seemingly endless supply of troops. If I can locate it, we have a real chance to take Cerberus out of this war.
I wish I could come with you, Shepard. But you have to stay focused on the Reapers.
Cerberus...Cerberus is my responsability."

Rather than:
"Oriana is missing. I need to find her"

Would have made all the difference, IMO.

Yes, that would have been better.  But it still doesn't do anything for contribution to the war which is what the comment was likely trying to point out.  Sanctuary is just...there...

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
Would have made all the difference, IMO.

That would have been a good start anyway. But I think the implementation of Sanctuary is also problematic. One doesn't get the impression that it's all that important. It's just... there. Really it seems like its main function is to allow Miranda's mission to have plot significance that it wouldn't otherwise have, but, since the mission changes nothing, it feels like an unnecessary pitstop between Thessia and TIM's base.

If Sanctuary were removed from the game entirely, and Shepard tracked Leng some other way, what would be different? I think the answer is: nothing.

So that's also a big problem. You can't just say it's important. It has to actually *be* important.

Edit: 'd a bit by Vertigo, but anyway, yeah, agreed.

In a sense you could say it's a Priority Mission in name only. Or, to put it another way, it's a priority mission because it's Miranda's mission, and the game recognizes that she should get involved at an important stage of the plot, but the implementation doesn't follow through.

Modifié par flemm, 04 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[Vertigo_1]

flemm wrote...
In a sense you could say it's a Priority Mission in name only. Or, to put it another way, it's a priority mission because it's Miranda's mission, and the game recognizes that she should get involved at an important point in the game, but the implementation doesn't follow through.

Yeah, Sanctuary felt more like a side mission than a priority mission.  I think if they added more to that mission (whether it be that cut boss or a fleshed out confrontation/dialog or more mechanics) it would have been more in line with other priority mission in ME3.  As it stands that mission felt and somewhat boring (at least to me).

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@ Flemm

I'm actually heading to PAX this weekend so I'll bring a copy of the letter. I'm definitely going to the DA panel to hear David Gaider speak. I've got mixed feelings on the ME panel, I really want to hear Patrick Weekes speak, but I'm also worried that it'll turn into a "mob of angry villagers" scenario.

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
Yeah, Sanctuary felt more like a side mission than a priority mission.  I think if they added some of what wasn't cut (the bossfight) and some extra dialog (confrontation, etc) or mechanics would have made it more in line with the other priority missions which felt huge, whereas that mission wasn't (at least to me)

Agreed, it would have increased the scale. But also, I think it would need to have some sort of impact other than simply being an unnecessary extra link in the plot chain.

I think that impact should involve TIM's indoctrinated troops, with Miranda's impact being that, if she survives, she can undo the indoctrination effect put in place by her father. The liberated troops look to her for leadership. Something like that.

That could also be how she makes the assault on Chronos station easier, and it gives her a clear role in the endgame (leading the liberated ex-Cerberus soldiers.)

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
In a sense you could say it's a Priority Mission in name only. Or, to put it another way, it's a priority mission because it's Miranda's mission, and the game recognizes that she should get involved at an important stage of the plot, but the implementation doesn't follow through.

With this I will disagree.
Sanctuary is no different than the Collector Cruiser in ME2. You could say Shepard could have found a different to discover the location of the CB but that point is moot. Shepard wouldn't have reached Cronos without Miranda planting a tracer on Leng.

Mayhaps the mission does not feel as grand as other Priority missions. Showing the fight between Miranda and Leng would be a good start. Better yet, give some big choice to the players. Even if Thessia didn't have one either.
Otherwise, they could have made it optional (which I wouldn't like)and give consequences for failing such as what happens with the turian bomb on Tuchanka.

As it stand tough, I prefer this presentation. At least Miranda does something vital.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[yesikareyes]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ Flemm

I'm actually heading to PAX this weekend so I'll bring a copy of the letter. I'm definitely going to the DA panel to hear David Gaider speak. I've got mixed feelings on the ME panel, I really want to hear Patrick Weekes speak, but I'm also worried that it'll turn into a "mob of angry villagers" scenario.

I wish I could go to PAX and support the Miranda fans! Stupid finals month 

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
I think that impact should involve TIM's indoctrinated troops, with Miranda's impact being that, if she survives, she can undo the indoctrination effect put in place by her father. The liberated troops look to her for leadership. Something like that.

That could also be how she makes the assault on Chronos station easier, and it gives her a clear role in the endgame (leading the liberated ex-Cerberus soldiers.)

Agreed but I would have preferred a choice. For example, maybe it is impossible to reverse the Indocrination.
Shepard can put them out of their misery or allow Miranda to use them for more altruistic goals.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
With this I will disagree.
Sanctuary is no different than the Collector Cruiser in ME2. You could say Shepard could have found a different to discover the location of the CB but that point is moot. Shepard wouldn't have reached Cronos without Miranda planting a tracer on Leng.

I see your point, but I don't think the analogy really holds, for a couple of reasons. One is that the Collector Ship itself represents a major plot revelation. Nothing on Sanctuary is comparable to that. It could have been comparable to that, theoretically, but as it stands, it feels more like a side mission dressed up as a main plot mission.

Another difference is that no single character is tied to the Collector Ship mission. Miranda appearing to move the plot along (which moves along just fine without her) makes her appearance feel pointless. She needs to have something to do besides pass Shepard along to the next mission. The games are just designed differently in that respect.

Hence why players like those people commenting on YouTube have the impression that the other characters are doing something important, whereas Miranda is not. Are they technically right? Maybe not, but it's a problem with the design that it comes across that way.

MisterJB wrote...
Agreed but I would have preferred a choice. For example, maybe it is impossible to reverse the Indocrination.
Shepard can put them out of their misery or allow Miranda to use them for more altruistic goals.

Sure, a choice would have been great. Something along those lines.

Modifié par flemm, 04 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[enayasoul]

Sanctuary DOES tell you what's been happening with Cerberus and why they are what they are! And who is responsible. Sanctuary is mentioned on the Citadel in endless advertisements. It was important...

If  you really think about it openly... Miranda DID do something important.  She shut down Sanctuary... or at least contained the situation.... nobody else would be mislead by her father's lies... too many lives were lost but still she didn't walk away and stopped it from continuing.  That's something...

Modifié par enayasoul, 04 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...

I see your point, but I don't think the analogy really holds, for a couple of reasons. One is that the Collector Ship itself represents a major plot revelation. Nothing on Sanctuary is comparable to that. It could have been comparable to that, theoretically, but as it stands, it feels more like a side mission dressed up as a main plot mission.

Discovering the Collectors were Protheans was decorative at best. I liked it but Shepard says as much in the sentence.
In Sanctuary, you discover how Harper is able to mantain the army you've been figthing for most of the game.
Not to mention the discovery Cerberus has actually managed to control Reaper forces. Tough, that too is mostly decorative.
You can't actualy choose to use their research.

Another difference is that no single character is tied to the Collector Ship mission. Miranda appearing to move the plot along (which moves along just fine without her) makes her appearance feel pointless. She needs to have something to do besides pass Shepard along to the next mission. The games are just designed differently in that respect.

I agree with this. Miranda should have had as much impact on the Cerberus storyline as Legion and Tali had on the Quarian/Geth peace.

[Nightwriter]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ Nightwriter

Bioware really wants you to romance Liara. I did a no romance import and the game was really trying to tell me something

But WHY?!

DAMN IT WHY.

WHY DO THEY WANT ME TO ROMANCE HER.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
I agree with this. Miranda should have had as much impact on the Cerberus storyline as Legion and Tali had on the Quarian/Geth peace.

Agreed. That is the most important point.


Re: the Collector Ship, the ship itself is also pretty important. It's true that this is... cosmetic on some level, I guess? The scale of it, the amount of pods, etc. But that is part of implementation, and Sanctuary could definitely have used more of that type of thing.

Technically, it is important. In practice, it doesn't really come across that way. I think that is for two reasons:

1) The implementation is lacking.
2) Nothing really happens there. There needed to be some type of choice or something to be gained from doing it right/keeping Miranda alive, etc.