82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Caihn]

MrNose wrote...

When she talks to you, all she mentions is that her father is involved in something big (ambiguous), but that's it.  She seems to see it as a sidenote to rescuing her sister.

No she also says that when she discovered what happened in Sanctuary, she couldn't just walk away.

I agree that her main motivation is to rescue Oriana, but she also wanted to do something to stop this.

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...
No she also says that when she discovered what happened in Sanctuary, she couldn't just walk away.

However, that's once she's already there, I believe.

In passing, the line strikes me as a bit odd since Miranda hadn't rescued Orianna yet and therefore wasn't going to be leaving regardless. Just in terms of continuity, it seems a bit off.

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[MisterJB]

I'm just going to point to the videologs in Sanctuary.
There is the driven, amazing, no-nonsense and cautious Miranda we love.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

I'm just going to point to the videologs in Sanctuary.
There is the driven, amazing, no-nonsense and cautious Miranda we love.

Yes, they are good

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
No she also says that when she discovered what happened in Sanctuary, she couldn't just walk away.

However, that's once she's already there, I believe.

In passing, the line strikes me as a bit odd since Miranda hadn't rescued Orianna yet and therefore wasn't going to be leaving regardless. Just in terms of continuity, it seems a bit off.

She might have simply meant that if all she wanted to do was save Oriana, she could have left much sooner.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
She might have simply meant that if all she wanted to do was save Oriana, she could have left much sooner.

Yeah, probably. The phrasing is odd, though. Anyway, the idea seems to have been "She comes looking for Orianna, but decides she has to try to do something about Sanctuary once she's there."

Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, of course she wants to do something about it, but as the sum total of her involvement in the game, it's simply not good enough.

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
No she also says that when she discovered what happened in Sanctuary, she couldn't just walk away.

However, that's once she's already there, I believe.

In passing, the line strikes me as a bit odd since Miranda hadn't rescued Orianna yet and therefore wasn't going to be leaving regardless. Just in terms of continuity, it seems a bit off.

She couldn't know what was going on until she was there.

And I think when she says she couldn't walk away, she means recuing her sister and leave.
She is the one who warn the possible incoming refugees to go away, and without Kai Leng I'm sure she would have succesfuly stop this mess.

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

And I think when she says she couldn't walk away, she means recuing her sister and leave.
She is the one who warn the possible incoming refugees to go away, and without Kai Leng I'm sure she would have succesfuly stop this mess.

Yes, certainly.

On the subject of whether she *could* have become aware of what basically was happening there prior to intervening, though, I'm not sure. She has contacts, she knows her father is working for Cerberus. It would have greatly helped if she was actively trying to stop Cerberus from the beginning, as well as rescue her sister imo.

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 09:46 .

[jtav]

The impression I get is that Miranda in the main game doesn't care about Cerberus except insofar as they keep her from Ori.

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...

The impression I get is that Miranda in the main game doesn't care about Cerberus except insofar as they keep her from Ori.

After Sanctuary she immediately starts attacking them.

[jtav]

Which we hear about in an email. An email I love, but fairly obvious damage control.

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...

After Sanctuary she immediately starts attacking them.

Yes, which is why everybody loves that email, but the problem is she should have been doing something along those lines from the beginning. 

And the email is very likely a late addition tailored to placate us, as opposed to actual content.

Give me a few missions with Miranda attacking some Cerberus bases before and after Sanctuary, and I'm a much happier fan. Of course she should be there for the main Cerberus base.

The thing is, with Cerberus being what it is in ME3, she *has* to actively oppose it to stay intact as a character. Anything else is incomprehensible, given her previous allegiance to the organisation. She has a responsability to deal with this (preferably alongside Shepard for at least part of the game), and she should feel personally betrayed by TIM.

The decision to just drop the issue really undermines the character. She should feel as strongly about this as about her personal issues.

That's why it matters so much that her involvement with Sanctuary feels incidental/accidental, just a bi-product of wanting to save Orianna. It makes it seem like Miranda feels no sense of responsability for what Cerberus has become.

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 10:04 .

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...
Do you believe the rumors that Casey Hudson wrote and recorded the ending with little to no peer-review?

The rumors say Casey Hudson and Mac Walters wrote the endings without input from the team. I tend to believe them. It would explain a lot.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
One guess which version I prefer. It's weird: whenever people speak about Miranda or when she appears only in text, it's her. When she opens her mouth, it's an imposter. (barring a few nice bits)

So....then the one who wrote her dialogue is responsible for the character derailment.

[jtav]

You know when you should have first met her? Sanctum or Benning, leading a commando squad. Then Ori gets kidnapped (or killed) and she and her team head to Sanctuary. Miranda stops her father's work and reverses light indoctrination. If she's unloyal, she dies. If she's loyal, she's wounded. And she appears via headset on TIM's base.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

You know when you should have first met her? Sanctum or Benning, leading a commando squad. Then Ori gets kidnapped (or killed) and she and her team head to Sanctuary. Miranda stops her father's work and reverses light indoctrination. If she's unloyal, she dies. If she's loyal, she's wounded. And she appears via headset on TIM's base.

I agree with everything except that last part. Miranda not being at the base, physically there, alongside Shepard is an absolute expletive-worthy scandal.

And I will never change my mind on that

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
The thing is, with Cerberus being what it is in ME3, she *has* to actively oppose it to stay intact as a character. Anything else is incomprehensible, given her previous allegiance to the organisation. She has a responsability to deal with this (preferably alongside Shepard for at least part of the game), and she should feel personally betrayed by TIM.

The decision to just drop the issue really undermines the character. She should feel as strongly about this as about her personal issues.

That's why it matters so much that her involvement with Sanctuary feels incidental/accidental, just a bi-product of wanting to save Orianna. It makes it seem like Miranda feels no sense of responsability for what Cerberus has become.

it is really odd. There they had the chance to pull Miranda over to the side of the good guys without derailing her character and keeping her awesome at the same time - and didn't take the opportunity? I don't understand it....it's almost as incomprehensible as the ending fiasco.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

You know when you should have first met her? Sanctum or Benning, leading a commando squad. Then Ori gets kidnapped (or killed) and she and her team head to Sanctuary. Miranda stops her father's work and reverses light indoctrination. If she's unloyal, she dies. If she's loyal, she's wounded. And she appears via headset on TIM's base.

I agree with everything except that last part. Miranda not being at the base, physically there, alongside Shepard is an absolute expletive-worthy scandal.

And I will never change my mind on that

QFT. Miranda should have been at TIM's base. It would have been so appropriate. The very first scene we get of her is at TIM's base. The story almost screams to let her return there.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda should have been at TIM's base. It would have been so appropriate. The very first scene we get of her is at TIM's base. The story almost screams to let her return there.

This. All of it.

[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...
Do you believe the rumors that Casey Hudson wrote and recorded the ending with little to no peer-review?

The rumors say Casey Hudson and Mac Walters wrote the endings without input from the team. I tend to believe them. It would explain a lot.

That's also heavily implied in the Final Hours of Mass Effect 3 app

EDIT: 
Here's a quote from the app itself:

For weeks Hudson and Walters discussed the emotions they wanted players to feel at the end of the game and then wrote dialogue and scenes to support those feelings.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 06 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[MrNose]

flemm wrote...

Yes, which is why everybody loves that email, but the problem is she should have been doing something along those lines from the beginning. 

And the email is very likely a late addition tailored to placate us, as opposed to actual content.

Give me a few missions with Miranda attacking some Cerberus bases before and after Sanctuary, and I'm a much happier fan. Of course she should be there for the main Cerberus base.

The thing is, with Cerberus being what it is in ME3, she *has* to actively oppose it to stay intact as a character. Anything else is incomprehensible, given her previous allegiance to the organisation. She has a responsability to deal with this (preferably alongside Shepard for at least part of the game), and she should feel personally betrayed by TIM.

The decision to just drop the issue really undermines the character. She should feel as strongly about this as about her personal issues.

That's why it matters so much that her involvement with Sanctuary feels incidental/accidental, just a bi-product of wanting to save Orianna. It makes it seem like Miranda feels no sense of responsability for what Cerberus has become.

For sure.  The email crystalizes the problem of her not being more active in the game, rather than reducing it.  We also know that she had a run in with Cerberus sometime before Sanctuary that was important enough to bring her into contact with TIM.  So she could have been a thorn in Cerberus' side for a while.  

That's why I read certain dialogue as being written for the purpose of putting Miranda in a more proactive light...  Particularly the video logs.  Its as if, seeing her marginalization, some effort is at least being made to salvage the cohesiveness of the character's narrative.  

[hot_heart]

On Twitter, Patrick Weekes directs people towards Mac Walters when asked about the ending.

I believe Weekes was responsible for those emails you get from the Datapad app (where people liked that Miranda one) as well as Blasto.

Also, Padok Wiks was created by John Dombrow who figured people would suspect him. While Weekes named Jondum Bau in retaliation.

Modifié par hot_heart, 06 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...


it is really odd. There they had the chance to pull Miranda over to the side of the good guys without derailing her character and keeping her awesome at the same time - and didn't take the opportunity? I don't understand it....it's almost as incomprehensible as the ending fiasco.

I get the impression her writer was entirely too enamored of some sexist cliches or saw only Miranda's broad archetype without any of the nuance that made her awesome.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I get the impression her writer was entirely too enamored of some sexist cliches or saw only Miranda's broad archetype without any of the nuance that made her awesome.

I think this is the truth of the matter, though perhaps it was not fully conscious.

The reality is that this point of view explains what happens to Miranda in ME3 much more quickly and easily than anything else. For example, why no dialogue where Miranda reflects on her past with Cerberus? It's such an obvious and glaring omission!

Well, it becomes easily explainable when you realize that such dialogue would, by definition, not be focused either on Oriana or on the romance. It would be abstract thought, not emotion.

Miranda spends a lot of time thinking in ME2. A lot of her banter is really interesting and thought-provoking. She has a cerebral side.

In ME3, this is absent, except for perhaps a few touches in the first dialogue that imo were probably also edits suggested by Weekes.

It's so important that there be balance between the emotion (a good thing in itself), and the more cerebral part of the character.

Modifié par flemm, 06 avril 2012 - 10:27 .

[TheHugonaut]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda should have been at TIM's base. It would have been so appropriate. The very first scene we get of her is at TIM's base. The story almost screams to let her return there.

This. All of it.

Exactly.

By the way, how do you receive the post-Sanctuary email? In my play-through (only one, I can't bring myself to do it again given the ending) she's loyal and survives Sanctuary. I didn't play LOTSB - is that the reason?