82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

@yankee

Great video. It's amazing what  you can do even with the lack of content.

Modifié par Skullheart, 07 avril 2012 - 01:48 .

[CuseGirl]

I'm sorry, I put all the blame for why ME-3 is ME-3 on Electronic Arts nonsense deadlines. RPGs can't be made like Madden or FIFA. I expected to have at least one playable mission with Miranda, that at least included banter with Ashely/Liara. And the romance scene was weak....

Outside of Yvonne Strahovski not being able to commit to as much dialogue, I think the sidelining of her character was a poor decision and then executed poorly to boot.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 07 avril 2012 - 03:31 .

[MrNose]

CuseGirl wrote...

Outside of Yvonne Strahovski not being able to commit to as much dialogue.

Wait, was this why she was sidelined?

[CrutchCricket]

No, that's just speculation. Can't know for sure.

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...

Wait, was this why she was sidelined?

There's no reason in particular to think so. But it's always been a possible contributing factor, due to the expense for a "might be dead" character. She's the only such character with that type of VA (it's not accidental that mostly the expensive VAs are not killable characters).

[MrNose]

flemm wrote...

MrNose wrote...

Wait, was this why she was sidelined?

There's no reason in particular to think so. But it's always been a possible contributing factor, due to the expense for a "might be dead" character. She's the only such character with that type of VA (it's not accidental that mostly the expensive VAs are not killable characters).

Are their stats on what percentage of the time each character survived the suicide mission?  Miranda was fairly hard to get killed.  I feel like it would have been okay for BioWare to make an assumption on this one, like they did with Garrus or Tali.  

[MisterJB]

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...

Are their stats on what percentage of the time each character survived the suicide mission?  Miranda was fairly hard to get killed.  I feel like it would have been okay for BioWare to make an assumption on this one, like they did with Garrus or Tali.  

Yes, some were released recently, with Jacob, Miranda and Garrus surviving the most often (in that order).

But that's the problem, of course: once a character can be dead, it becomes necessary to design the game as if the character weren't there, regardless of percentages. Miranda is much more complicated to deal with than Garrus and Tali, who can just be added to the crew, no questions asked. And of course they don't have celebrity VAs.

It's hard to say what the thought-process was here, exactly. But I doubt Miranda having Strahovski as VA really helped.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 03:15 .

[MrNose]

flemm wrote...

MrNose wrote...

Are their stats on what percentage of the time each character survived the suicide mission?  Miranda was fairly hard to get killed.  I feel like it would have been okay for BioWare to make an assumption on this one, like they did with Garrus or Tali.  

Yes, some were released recently, with Jacob, Miranda and Garrus surviving the most often (in that order).

But that's the problem, of course: once a character can be dead, it becomes necessary to design the game as if the character weren't there, regardless of percentages. Miranda is much more complicated to deal with than Garrus and Tali, who can just be added to the crew, no questions asked. And of course they don't have celebrity VAs.

It's hard to say what the thought-process was here, exactly. But I doubt Miranda having Strahovski as VA really helped.

I dunno about that.  BioWare wrote quite a bit of the story as if people like Wrex and Mordin survived, and used obvious stand-ins if they didn't.  Garrus they just kind of assumed was alive, and skipped over otherwise. 

With Miranda, rather than going with her being alive and presenting a death alternative, they went the other way.  If she's not dead at the beginning, she gets a cameo and then for a lot of people she will die at Sanctuary.  Everything after that is just the mildest of hedged bets for those that kept her alive.    

[jtav]

I doubt it helped either. Sometimes it seems they did everything they could to keep her lines limited to what could be recorded in one session. Which is why there were a chunk of us *almost* hoping for a recast--hoping it led to more dialogue, But the truth is we just want some factor we can blame. Because Strahovski is pretty darn good in both games.

At present, I blame her writer.

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...

With Miranda, rather than going with her being alive and presenting a death alternative, they went the other way.  If she's not dead at the beginning, she gets a cameo and then for a lot of people she will die at Sanctuary.  Everything after that is just the mildest of hedged bets for those that kept her alive.    

Well, sort of. I mean, her mission is designed for her, and Orianna is the Wreav. She can't survive in non-import games, but quite a few characters, like Wrex, for example, are not alive at all in non-imports. Nor is Jack, to take another example, though the Grissom mission works best with her alive.

Anyway, the outline of her role would have been decided early on, as the story was being drafted, so that makes it hard to say how much practical considerations played into it. If they did play into it, they would have already had their impact before any of the design we are seeing actually became concrete.

I think the difference in cost for VA sessions is very significant when you compare a celebrity VA to the regular VAs. Hale, Meer, Sbarge (Kaidan) and others like them seem to spend lots and lots of time in the studio, over a span of months. Whereas I think they have to manage the sessions with the celebs pretty carefully.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 03:33 .

[o Ventus]

Do we know who wrote Miranda?

[jtav]

And, well, BW is very conventional in terms of storytelling and Miranda ticks a lot of boxes for "character killed off to make you hate the villain." I do feel that romanced death is the preferred version for the rather silly reason that the music fits best there.

[Skullheart]

Well, I blame Walters by his obsession with his waifu (no other character can be more interesting than Liara), and the guy who wrote Miranda in ME3.

Modifié par Skullheart, 07 avril 2012 - 03:35 .

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

Do we know who wrote Miranda?

No. I suppose we will find out eventually.

The person's name will live in infamy, so I guess there's no harm in delaying that for a little while

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 03:37 .

[flemm]

Skullheart wrote...

Well, I blame Walters by his obsession with his waifu (no other character can be more interesting than Liara), en the guy who wrote Miranda in ME3.

Tbh, to the extent that there's someone with a lot of creative control on the dev team who pushes hard for the clichéd interpretation of Miranda we see in ME3, I think it's probably Hudson.

That's bad news, obviously, since he's the lead developer

But his comments about Miranda tend to set off alarm bells to me. Whereas Walters' really don't. Also Walters wrote crit path Miranda in ME2, which is the most assertive, pragmatic Miranda.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

I doubt it helped either. Sometimes it seems they did everything they could to keep her lines limited to what could be recorded in one session. Which is why there were a chunk of us *almost* hoping for a recast--hoping it led to more dialogue, But the truth is we just want some factor we can blame. Because Strahovski is pretty darn good in both games.

At present, I blame her writer.

THIS. I want to blame Yvonne's availablility, because it means it wasn't deliberate, it was just an uncontrolable "thing" that they tip toed around. "ok, we don't have time to record banter or an Ash/Miranda conversation"....But if they had the time, it means they purposely sidelined her. And the whole "she dies in non-import games" is a stupid excuse. Let's be real, aren't the majoriy of ME-3 purchases from people who bought ME-2? And the numbers showed she was the 2nd most survivable character.....so why would they write as if she wasn't there? The only reasons would be they didn't wanna pay Yvonne, she didn't wanna do it or didn't have the time, or even worse they just botched it. ::sigh:: how can they botch ME-3? unreal....

[o Ventus]

What did Casey Lolson say about Miranda?

[jtav]

I agree with flemm. Hudson also developed KOTOR, and I think it kind of shows. Walters is bad at some thins, but he seems to adore dark grey. And he created Petrovsky.

[CrutchCricket]

Early in the planning they decided not to focus on Miranda. The result was the path of least resistance. End of story.

[jtav]

Hudson said Miranda was simpler than Jack. Where I found the opposite in ME2. It's true in ME3.

[Skullheart]

So, is CH main fault or what?

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

What did Casey Lolson say about Miranda?

Well, one comment that's been discussed around here previously is the one about Jack and Miranda. It's in response to a question about reactions to characters, and he says people tell him they hate Jack, who was a complex character, but they tell him all the time how much they love Miranda, "who was a simpler character, I think, but a lot of people really connected with her."

What I think we can take from that, especially given what happens in ME3, is that people somehow got it backwards in his mind. That they identified with Miranda, who was just supposed to be the sexy face of this evil organisation.

He also seems very attached to the idea that she is a "femme fatale," something which is brought up in that same interview, and he sort of tries to justify that point of view, but it doesn't really work. Because in ME2, her character doesn't work that way. There are elements of that, but there is a lot more going on.

But if you look up "femme fatale" on tv tropes, you basically get the outline of her story in ME3. That's one reason why it feels so cliché-ridden compared with ME2. So, that's why I say the comments "set off alarm bells" to me.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 03:55 .

[MrNose]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

What did Casey Lolson say about Miranda?

But if you look up "femme fatale" on tv tropes, you basically get the outline of her story in ME3. That's one reason why it feels so cliché-ridden compared with ME2. So, that's why I say the comments "set off alarm bells" to me.

Hmm?  In ME2 Miranda is a mysterious female who works for a shadowy organization.  In ME3 she's undisputably nice.  The femme fatale description applies squarely to ME2 (as noted on TV Tropes).  

[jtav]

Yeah, in ME2, she's an idealist who acts like she couldn't flatter to save her life. She doesn't even seem to regard Shep as a sexual object until he mentions it. Let alone seducing him for her own purposes. But LOTSB/ME3 Miranda is a redeemed femme fatale.