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[Vertigo_1]

You guys know that the writer(s) have likely read our thread right?

Usually I'd get a response from Weekes over twitter. Before launch he wouldn't say (that was back when he told me he wasn't writing Miranda in ME3 and we had that near panic in the thread). I asked him a few days ago (when he wasn't getting pinged much so he could see it) but no response.

They likely don't want to say who at this point...but I'll ask him again

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 07 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...
Hmm?  In ME2 Miranda is a mysterious female who works for a shadowy organization.  In ME3 she's undisputably nice.  The femme fatale description applies squarely to ME2 (as noted on TV Tropes).  

There are definitely femme fatale elements to Miranda in ME2, basically the ones you mention. But things like the genetic enhancements, Lazarus, the cerebral banter, focus on the mission, even the father/sister subplot don't really fit.

However, if you look up "femme fatale" as a trope, it's not only the initial "mysterious female," it's a story arc that has two clichéd conclusions: the femme fatale (1) lures the hero to perdition (and ultimately to his death, or at least usually), or (2) the femme fatale is saved by the hero and redeems herself (usually via Redemption Equals Death).

Arguably #1 sort of happens in ME2 if you side with Cerberus (and accept the idea that you have been led to temptation by Miranda), except for the part where the hero permanently dies, of course. That's about as far as that can go.

So, you're left with clichéd ending #2, or alternately, you can subvert/transcend the cliché. Miranda was all primed to do that very thing in ME3 because there are so many ways in which she can/could grow as a character that don't correspond to the cliché: the transhumanist angle via the genetic enhancements, the Cerberus Renegade idea, the idealist who wants to be a part of humanity's STG, the whole question of her overcoming her insecurities via a confrontation with her father, I could go on.

Anyway, the essential outline of her role in ME3 is cliché #2. So it's likely that whoever had creative control said basically, "she's a femme fatale, this is how it should work." Later it was dressed up to be somewhat more palatable than the raw cliché, but really not much. So, that's what I mean when I say (like in my letter) that the character was pummeled with clichés when previously the character was not limited to those clichés.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[MrNose]

flemm wrote...

MrNose wrote...
Hmm?  In ME2 Miranda is a mysterious female who works for a shadowy organization.  In ME3 she's undisputably nice.  The femme fatale description applies squarely to ME2 (as noted on TV Tropes).  

There are definitely femme fatale elements to Miranda in ME2, basically the ones you mention. But things like the genetic enhancements, Lazarus, the cerebral banter, focus on the mission, even the father/sister subplot don't really fit.

However, if you look up "femme fatale" as a trope, it's not only the initial "mysterious female," it's a story arc that has two clichéd conclusions: the femme fatale (1) lures the hero to perdition (and ultimately to his death, or at least usually), or (2) the femme fatale is saved by the hero and redeems herself (usually via Redemption Equals Death).

Arguably #1 sort of happens in ME2 if you side with Cerberus (and accept the idea that you have been led to temptation by Miranda), except for the part where the hero permanently dies, of course. That's about as far as that can go.

So, you're left with clichéd ending #2, or alternately, you can subvert/transcend the cliché. Miranda was all primed to do that very thing in ME3 because there are so many ways in which she can/could grow as a character that don't correspond to the cliché: the transhumanist angle via the genetic enhancements, the Cerberus Renegade idea, the idealist who wants to be a part of humanity's STG, the whole question of her overcoming her insecutrities via a confrontation with her father, I could go on.

Anyway, the essential outline of her role in ME3 is cliché #2.

Okay.  I guess I feel that she fits the FF role in ME2 a bit more than you do, but I now see what you mean re: Miranda going the route of cliché  #2, and I agree with it.  Her role in ME3 is certainly a more by-the-numbers interpretation of the trope.

Any time the characters are acting in order to conform to the plot, rather than the plot flowing from the characters, things get shakey, and that's what seemed to happen in ME3 with Miranda.  

[flemm]

MrNose wrote...

Okay.  I guess I feel that she fits the FF role in ME2 a bit more than you do, but I now see what you mean re: Miranda going the route of cliché  #2, and I agree with it.  Her role in ME3 is certainly a more by-the-numbers interpretation of the trope.

Any time the characters are acting in order to conform to the plot, rather than the plot flowing from the characters, things get shakey, and that's what seemed to happen in ME3 with Miranda.  

Agreed 100%, that is a great way of looking at it.

Basically, with Miranda, imo we have a character that started with a certain trope (the femme fatale), but thanks to a combination of good writing, good acting, some fortuitous plot elements (like the combination of the genetic enchancements and Lazarus), and other things, had become a much more complex character who could have really grown in a lot of different directions.

But in ME3 the cliché just comes slamming down on the character, so that the complexity is entirely gone.

jtav wrote...

Yeah, in ME2, she's an idealist who acts like she couldn't flatter to save her life. She doesn't even seem to regard Shep as a sexual object until he mentions it. Let alone seducing him for her own purposes.

This part is actually sort of humorous and possibly part of the core issue.

The question is actually raised in the interview I referenced because the interviewer wanted to know about the notorious butt shot. Hudson sort of tries to justify it as Miranda doing her femme fatale thing and seducing Shepard, with the problem being that it blatantly doesn't work that way.

Miranda seems completely oblivious to that side of things really throughout the game. It's just the devs fetishizing her ass, while Miranda talks about other things, focuses on her work, the mission, etc. And is very wary of getting involved romantically with Shepard.

It's like somebody forgot somewhere along the way that a femme fatale actively tries to seduce others. So you end up with this dynamic where Miranda is supposed to be a temptress but somebody forgot to tell Miranda. It's good, of course, that she doesn't really fit the trope past a certain point. That's why Miranda is Miranda.

But it's also why ME3 Miranda feels... wrong so much of the time. Round peg, square hole, you can't really squeeze Miranda back into the cliché without doing violence to the character.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 04:57 .

[CuseGirl]

Sorry...trying to quote 2 people...hold on

Modifié par CuseGirl, 07 avril 2012 - 04:54 .

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

This part is actually sort of humorous and possibly part of the core issue.

The question is actually raised in the interview I referenced because the interviewer wanted to know about the notorious butt shot. Hudson sort of tries to justify it as Miranda doing her femme fatale thing and seducing Shepard, with the problem being that it blatantly doesn't work that way.

Miranda seems completely oblivious to that side of things really throughout the game. It's just the devs fetishizing her ass, while Miranda talks about other things, focuses on her work, the mission, etc. And is very wary of getting involved romantically with Shepard.

It's like somebody forgot somewhere along the way that a femme fatale actively tries to seduce others. So you end up with this dynamic where Miranda is supposed to be a temptress but somebody forgot to tell Miranda. It's good, of course, that she doesn't really fit the trope past a certain point. That's why Miranda is Miranda.

But it's also why ME3 Miranda feels... wrong so much of the time. Round peg, square hole, you can really squeeze Miranda back into the cliché without doing violence to the character.

To the first bold part: It's funny how these devs are unwilling to ever admit to anything they do.....because I guess if we knew what they were thinking, we would :GASP: have an opinion on it? ::cue Lemongrab's Unacceptable::

To the 2nd bolded part: She just sounded too careful and delicate when she spoke to Shepard (altho it could have been the sound editing/mixing). She also sounded exhausted at times...maybe that's direction as well....I dunno, something about her dialogue seemed off.....

[MisterJB]

Now I'm left wondering if the Lead Developer is aware of the intricacies of his own game or if he simply expects the characters to abide by very clear personality cliches stamps that are placed on them early in development stage.

Did Miranda's complexity came to be by accident?

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

MisterJB wrote...

Now I'm left wondering if the Lead Developer is aware of the intricacies of his own game or if he simply expects the characters to abide by very clear personality cliches stamps that are placed on them early in development stage.

Did Miranda's complexity came to be by accident?

I actually think it did.Bioware was most likely surprised in much interest we took in her and how we analyzed everything about her.

Do you think we over analyzed importance and significance in the me universe?

[MisterJB]

Even if it was, I have to ask "Why?"
Let's assume that Miranda was tought with the very clear personality of a "Femme Fatale"
But, either by accident or design, her writing in ME2 turned her into so much more. She was extremely complex: her need to work to justify her own existence coupled with a genuine desire to achieve the impossible; her pragmatism coupled with her idealism; professional and personal; ruthless and caring; brains and heart; someone who could place a control chip in someone's brain due to caution while, at the same time, capable of risking everything for what she believes in and those she cares about.

So, why return to the lowest common denominator? The Femme Fatale who redeems herself and dies.
Why not stick with complexity as allowed by the game's resources and development time?

Those who disliked her in ME2 are not going to start liking her in ME3 so, all you are accomplishing is alienating her already existing fanbase.

Was it such an unforgivable crime for her to challenge Shepard? Is everyone who does so (Udina comes to mind) condemned to this kind of treatment?

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[MisterJB]

Why would Miranda even need to redeem herself in the first place?
She believed in Cerberus but what happened at Sanctuary was not related to her work. There is no indication Henry based himself on anything Miranda ever did while with Cerberus in order to experiments on all those people. Control Chip included which could have actually made sense.

She did not give Cerberus the means to set up Sanctuary. She has nothing to redeem herself for unlike Mordin.
His is a redemption story that works.

And if the point was to redeem, why not redeem Cerberus?

The Rachni threatened the entire galaxy but Shepard can give them a second chance.

The krogan did the same but the game actually goes to great lengths to show how there is hope for the krogan.

Cerberus is nothing that the other Council Species don't have. Why is it treated as some sort of Black Plague that must be purged with any decent personel being assimillated by the Alliance?

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Miranda's role in ME3 was BW trolling us

[Caihn]

Thanks for the comments about my video.

I wish I could add some scenes with Miranda in action, damn you Bioware ! <_<

For those who wants to know what music I used : all the tracks are from the TF3 OST by Steve Jablonsky.

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[MisterJB]

Another thing that I consider to be an wasted opportunity.

When Miranda asks Shepard for acess to Alliance resources, he can deny her.
The questions is: Why should he?
Miranda in ME3 was never ambiguous. Shepard never questions whose side she is on, there is never any doubt that she was not with Cerberus. The theme is barely brought up in conversation, really. Why not make Shepard if, by allowying Miranda acess, he is not arming his enemies?

She doesn't say what kind of resources she needs, she never explains why she couldn't just tell Shepard what she was going to do, we don't see those resources having any kind of effect. This plot point goes nowhere.

[Nightwriter]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

Miranda's role in ME3 was BW trolling us

It was BioWare employing the ruthless calculus of game development.

[Td1984]

MisterJB wrote...

Another thing that I consider to be an wasted opportunity.

When Miranda asks Shepard for acess to Alliance resources, he can deny her.
The questions is: Why should he?
Miranda in ME3 was never ambiguous. Shepard never questions whose side she is on, there is never any doubt that she was not with Cerberus. The theme is barely brought up in conversation, really. Why not make Shepard if, by allowying Miranda acess, he is not arming his enemies?

She doesn't say what kind of resources she needs, she never explains why she couldn't just tell Shepard what she was going to do, we don't see those resources having any kind of effect. This plot point goes nowhere.

He could deny her access to the resources because she could be taking resources away that are vital to the Alliance's war effort. That being said, it's not like she'd waste them and the thought of actually denying them to her never comes into consideration for me. Nevermind the fact that doing so also gets her killed.

Modifié par Td1984, 07 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[Vertigo_1]

MisterJB wrote...
She doesn't say what kind of resources she needs, she never explains why she couldn't just tell Shepard what she was going to do, we don't see those resources having any kind of effect. This plot point goes nowhere.

Well, I'd like to think they were resources to help her attack Sanctuary.  Perhaps intel or weapons/equipment and/or some kind of transport?  She doesn't have Cerberus to help her this time.

She likely didn't tell Shepard so that he/she wouldn't have to worry about her.  She knows that he has his hands full (She mentioned this when he offered to help previously).  Still I'd have like a choice here to help her (it would be a reputation choice to get at what she's planning and offer help as in go on the mission with her; otherwise Sanctuary would play out like it does now)

Would have been really fun to go along with her and have her as temp squadmate.  We'd get some awesome banter, perhaps more insight into what she thinks of Cerberus now (as we fight their troopers), her thoughts on the audio logs of her father and TIM working together and finally...a real confrontation between her and Henry Lawson.

But I guess they ran out of time and decided to go the safe route (and it seems most of the ME2 squad).

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 07 avril 2012 - 06:42 .

[Ieldra]

Obvakhi wrote...

flemm wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...
Is 'Dat Ass' forbidden from being discussed here?

No, what about it would you like to discuss?

What did you think of it in ME3? 

I just noticed that whenever there's an ass shot of Miranda, it seems that everyone in this thread completely avoids the subject, lol. So I was wondering if it was taboo here.

As a rule we don't like the ass shots. The fact they made a return in ME3 is met mostly by resigned headshakes. But there's nothing left to discuss about it, except perhaps endless speculation why the scene designers couldn't leave off after the reaction it got in ME2.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

My Miranda in ME3 tribute video :

I promise

You made the best out of unsatisfactory material. Very nice. jtav. would you please put a link to this in the OP?

[Ieldra]

Skullheart wrote...
Well, I blame Walters by his obsession with his waifu (no other character can be more interesting than Liara), and the guy who wrote Miranda in ME3.

Mac Walters would be responsible for the sidelining. The missing flashback in the ending he designed speaks volumes. And there's no escaping the fact that Miranda should've been much more central to the plot with Cerberus as a main antagonist. Based on his comment on Jack and Miranda, Casey Hudson, plus the new writer would be responsible for the clichéd writing and the character mutilation. Not that Bioware is ever really subtle with characterization, but the drop in character depth is nowhere as noticeable as with Miranda.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Now I'm left wondering if the Lead Developer is aware of the intricacies of his own game or if he simply expects the characters to abide by very clear personality cliches stamps that are placed on them early in development stage.

Did Miranda's complexity came to be by accident?

I'm not sure. They made Miranda an LI *and* a representative of a shadowy organisation. You can't do that without a minimum of complexity. What they didn't expect, I think, is the extent to which we separated Cerberus' goals from their methods and interpreted Miranda as an idealist who was blind on one eye. We were supposed to reject every single aspect of "Cerberus Miranda" and we didn't because we liked the badass operative who works for a cause greater than herself. We were supposed to be relieved, I think, when that aspect vanished completely in ME3, only it destroyed the idealist who works for a cause greater than herself alongside, and as a result we didn't like it.

But on the other hand it's baffling. The writers did well in presenting Cerberus as an organization that had once been "grey", es evidenced by some of the comments of the Normandy crew, Kelly's "This is not the organization I joined" and all the Cerberus defectors who once believed in its agenda but now don't. Why Miranda wasn't allowed to follow the same path and reflect on her time with them in a similar way is very odd. I can think of no other explanation than the new writer wasn't up to it or too enamored of certain clichés.

Also I'm still confused about the genetic engineering. It's pretty clear that Miranda's enhancements are beneficial - everyone would want to have a longer life, a stronger immune system, better mind-body coordination and a higher learning capacity. So I don't think they could've reasonably expected people to reject that aspect of her. But the LotSB dossier makes it pretty clear someone expected exactly that and wanted to push it. We didn't comply. Instead everyone hated the medical report but continued to like Miranda *with* her enhancements.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Cerberus is nothing that the other Council Species don't have. Why is it treated as some sort of Black Plague that must be purged with any decent personel being assimillated by the Alliance?

Actually, it isn't. It's treated as an organization that was always shadowy but once did something worthwhile, and which has now gone completely evil. The defectors aren't allowed to remake their organization, and while I don't exaclty like that, it makes sense in the context of the plot. It's all-out war, it's best to assimilate the Cerberus defectors for now, including any knowledge or research projects useful against the Reapers. Any re-establishment of "humanity's STG", if desired, has to be postponed until the Reapers are dealt with.

What Miranda would do after the war is left to our imagination as it should be. And fortunately, I find that ME3 hasn't managed to destroy the woman who would lead humanity's STG and achieve the impossible completely. No thanks to her actual dialogue though.

 

[ThomGau]

Yannkee wrote...

My Miranda in ME3 tribute video :

I promise

I told you you'd do great
Despite how few scenes we have with Miranda you beautifully pulled it off.

[Dr. Doctor]

Went to the ME panel at PAX and while the better part of it was "We're listening to your criticism and fixing the ending" Patrick Weeke's discussion of how Mordin evolved as a character was really interesting.

Weekes talked about how when he first heard that Mordin had been one of the scientists responsible for the Genophage he asked why anyone would want him on the squad. Then he brought up that he had been tempted to have Mordin go "yeah, I sterilized the Krogan" but thought that it would only appeal to a few renegade players and would make him seem like a complete monster. So he eventually evolved into the character we know and love today.

He also went on to talk about how Tuchanka was written. Weekes wanted the Krogan to be more than just this race of warriors who are perpetually fighting one another so he introduced Eve and the City of the Ancients that we see on Tuchanka in order to show that the Krogan had culture and that there was the potential for them to advance as a species. Wrex was intended to reinforce the idea that curing the Genophage was a good thing while Wreave was intended to show why it might have been a good idea not to cure it.

Some of this resonates with Miranda's character in ME2. Yes, she's painted as the die-hard Cerberus agent early on but she becomes a character who shows why an organization with goals like Cerberus isn't necessarily a bad thing. On the other side of the arguement we have Jack (also written by Weekes) who shows that Cerberus' methods don't always match up with their intentions.

Of course hearing about all of this and playing ME3 where Miranda had a different writer makes me think of Mordin's line "Had to be me someone else might have gotten it wrong."

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Very nice Doctor that's really interesting and I loved the part at the end lol

[ThomGau]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Of course hearing about all of this and playing ME3 where Miranda had a different writer makes me think of Mordin's line "Had to be me someone else might have gotten it wrong."

Very true Doc.

To me Tutchanka is probably the best part of the game, they really nailed it there.