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[enayasoul]

ThomGau wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Of course hearing about all of this and playing ME3 where Miranda had a different writer makes me think of Mordin's line "Had to be me someone else might have gotten it wrong."

Very true Doc.

To me Tutchanka is probably the best part of the game, they really nailed it there.

Yes, they certainly did! Favorite part of game.

[wright1978]

MisterJB wrote...

Why would Miranda even need to redeem herself in the first place?
She believed in Cerberus but what happened at Sanctuary was not related to her work. There is no indication Henry based himself on anything Miranda ever did while with Cerberus in order to experiments on all those people. Control Chip included which could have actually made sense.

She did not give Cerberus the means to set up Sanctuary. She has nothing to redeem herself for unlike Mordin.
His is a redemption story that works.

And if the point was to redeem, why not redeem Cerberus?

The Rachni threatened the entire galaxy but Shepard can give them a second chance.

The krogan did the same but the game actually goes to great lengths to show how there is hope for the krogan.

Cerberus is nothing that the other Council Species don't have. Why is it treated as some sort of Black Plague that must be purged with any decent personel being assimillated by the Alliance?

Yeah this.

[TheHugonaut]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Now I'm left wondering if the Lead Developer is aware of the intricacies of his own game or if he simply expects the characters to abide by very clear personality cliches stamps that are placed on them early in development stage.

Did Miranda's complexity came to be by accident?

I'm not sure. They made Miranda an LI *and* a representative of a shadowy organisation. You can't do that without a minimum of complexity. What they didn't expect, I think, is the extent to which we separated Cerberus' goals from their methods and interpreted Miranda as an idealist who was blind on one eye. We were supposed to reject every single aspect of "Cerberus Miranda" and we didn't because we liked the badass operative who works for a cause greater than herself. We were supposed to be relieved, I think, when that aspect vanished completely in ME3, only it destroyed the idealist who works for a cause greater than herself alongside, and as a result we didn't like it.

But on the other hand it's baffling. The writers did well in presenting Cerberus as an organization that had once been "grey", es evidenced by some of the comments of the Normandy crew, Kelly's "This is not the organization I joined" and all the Cerberus defectors who once believed in its agenda but now don't. Why Miranda wasn't allowed to follow the same path and reflect on her time with them in a similar way is very odd. I can think of no other explanation than the new writer wasn't up to it or too enamored of certain clichés.

Also I'm still confused about the genetic engineering. It's pretty clear that Miranda's enhancements are beneficial - everyone would want to have a longer life, a stronger immune system, better mind-body coordination and a higher learning capacity. So I don't think they could've reasonably expected people to reject that aspect of her. But the LotSB dossier makes it pretty clear someone expected exactly that and wanted to push it. We didn't comply. Instead everyone hated the medical report but continued to like Miranda *with* her enhancements.

Exactly. Regarding the last point, I asked myself "Are they trying to make Miranda less attractive as a character because of her infertility? Is this supposed to make me switch to Ash or Liara?" I don't think it had to be automatically bad. If it was brought up in ME3 and Shepard has the choice to say something along the lines of "That doesn't matter to me" then it would have made sense. Might have even been additional dialogue in the apartment scene. After Shepard stated he always wanted her in his life, she might have felt like she wanted to be honest with him. 

Even then, I still think Miranda would have been better without it. 

[jtav]

OP updated with Yannkee's vid.

Back to the femme fatale thing, I think Miranda was originally supposed to hew much closer to the archetype. Look at some of the rejected concepts. Not only do they make the white catsuit look respectable, there's a lot more black. She looks like a dominatrix or a comic book supervillain. Even the name: Miranda Solheim even sounds villainous, doesn't it? Then Strahovski and Weekes came on board and she was transformed into something less sinister.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Actually, it isn't. It's treated as an organization that was always shadowy but once did something worthwhile, and which has now gone completely evil. The defectors aren't allowed to remake their organization, and while I don't exaclty like that, it makes sense in the context of the plot. It's all-out war, it's best to assimilate the Cerberus defectors for now, including any knowledge or research projects useful against the Reapers. Any re-establishment of "humanity's STG", if desired, has to be postponed until the Reapers are dealt with.

What Miranda would do after the war is left to our imagination as it should be. And fortunately, I find that ME3 hasn't managed to destroy the woman who would lead humanity's STG and achieve the impossible completely. No thanks to her actual dialogue though.

I disagree, Ieldra. Look at Miranda and her associates working against Cerberus, providing vital intel to the Alliance without ever joining them.
Couple that with Brynn saving a great number of scientists, add Petrovsky's fleet and we could reasonably say that this is the New Cerberus and the first threat to humanity they are facing is The Illusive Man who has adopted the methods of the old enemy, the Collectors.

The writers could give indications that Miranda intends to create a true Human Special Tasks Group after the war while still leaving great room for our imagination to work in the blanks.
They do so with Tuchanka. We wear a bit about the policies Wrex/Wreav intend to adopt after the war and that arc is in no way diminished by this.

Tragically, this is just not present in the game. No one ever talks about rebuilding Cerberus and there isn't a single choice regarding Cronos Station's databanks when we finally reach it.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also I'm still confused about the genetic engineering. It's pretty clear that Miranda's enhancements are beneficial - everyone would want to have a longer life, a stronger immune system, better mind-body coordination and a higher learning capacity. So I don't think they could've reasonably expected people to reject that aspect of her. But the LotSB dossier makes it pretty clear someone expected exactly that and wanted to push it. We didn't comply. Instead everyone hated the medical report but continued to like Miranda *with* her enhancements.

Shepard himself can support her genetic enhancements and try to help her get past her insecurities on the Paragon side of the Romance.

It might be that someone wanted her engineering to come across as "wrong" while Weekes agreed with us

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

flemm wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...
Is 'Dat Ass' forbidden from being discussed here?

No, what about it would you like to discuss?

What did you think of it in ME3? 

I just noticed that whenever there's an ass shot of Miranda, it seems that everyone in this thread completely avoids the subject, lol. So I was wondering if it was taboo here.

As a rule we don't like the ass shots. The fact they made a return in ME3 is met mostly by resigned headshakes. But there's nothing left to discuss about it, except perhaps endless speculation why the scene designers couldn't leave off after the reaction it got in ME2.

I don't like that they clearly changed it. It looks...dare I say, saggier than in ME-2....

[Dr. Doctor]

The majority of Cerberus and the third act (Chronos, Sanctuary, Earth) was handled by Mac Walters. Going from having what was done by Patrick Weekes or even the team of Walters and Drew Karpyshyn in ME1 and 2 to having Walters working on the bulk of a story gives a product that isn't as enjoyable to play through.

Walters' take on Mass Effect reminds me a lot of the original Star Trek, we have our bad guys (in this case Cerberus) and they're our antagonist they're completely evil because they're supposed to be the bad guys. This is all well and good but when you get morally ambiguous characters and situations like the Genophage cure, or ME2 Cerberus where you can have different interpretaions of what they're goals are and what they represent the transition to outright evil is rather jarring.

Where he does shine however, is when he's the one writing the overarching story alongside another writer who handles the characters and deeper story. The best example of this is the Mass Effect: Invasion which was scripted by John Jackson Miller, while Cerberus is the villian in this story they still have a lot of the moral ambiguity that was in ME2. The character of Oleg Petrovsky in particular was very well done, he believes in the goals that Cerberus is working towards, but he resents the fact that TIM is willing to throw away the lives of the men that he commands needlessly.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Yannkee wrote...

My Miranda in ME3 tribute video :

I promise

I L<3VE IT! And Perfect use of the Music from TransFormers: Dark Of The Moon.

[jtav]

Weekes wrote Cronos. I'd imagine Miranda's writer wrote Sanctuary.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Back to the femme fatale thing, I think Miranda was originally supposed to hew much closer to the archetype. Look at some of the rejected concepts. Not only do they make the white catsuit look respectable, there's a lot more black. She looks like a dominatrix or a comic book supervillain. Even the name: Miranda Solheim even sounds villainous, doesn't it? Then Strahovski and Weekes came on board and she was transformed into something less sinister.

Yes, probably. I also think Miranda's prominence in the game was probably something that changed a lot during ME2's development, and that she was originally not supposed to be that important (unlike TIM, for example, who was always supposed to be important moving forward).

It's easy to forget now, but there was a time in ME2's development when they would have been very worried about the whole concept of making the sequel Cerberus-focused working at all. So Miranda gradually become more important and more attractive, with the celebrity VA and all, and then in ME3 they felt they just needed to get rid of her pretty much. I mean, all the talk of clichés and stuff is accurate, but let's face it, mostly Miranda's role in ME3 is about just getting her out of the way. 

[jtav]

And you know Miranda being Cerberus 2IC is a perfectly respectable justification for her not being on the squad. Miranda's right; the Alliance and Council have standing orders for her capture and execution. They can accept her help under the table, but not overtly. She's too high-ranking for that. Shepard may be a Spectre, but that only goes so far.

There. A decent excuse that doesn't make Miranda a fool.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And you know Miranda being Cerberus 2IC is a perfectly respectable justification for her not being on the squad. Miranda's right; the Alliance and Council have standing orders for her capture and execution. They can accept her help under the table, but not overtly. She's too high-ranking for that. Shepard may be a Spectre, but that only goes so far.

There. A decent excuse that doesn't make Miranda a fool.

I don't really think that holds up, tbh. At least not after Sanctuary. If anything, it would be a good source of conflict/tension. This is not the type of thing you really should be trying to avoid in a story like this.

However, for it to happen, the writers would have to be willing to recognize a certain level of ambiguity; Miranda would have to be able to stand up and say, "TIM has betrayed our organisation's goals, this is not my Cerberus, and not the Cerberus many of us worked for." Something along those lines.

So, I think it's really the ham-fisted depiction of Cerberus that makes it problematic. Otherwise, not so much.

As for Miranda's characterisation, some sort of "Cerberus Renegade" plot where she works independantly against Cerberus could have been a good non-squad choice.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[VelvetStraitjacket]

Hey guys, I had an idea for the Extended Cut today which involves the remaining ME2 squadmates:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11139069/1#11139510
"If we pick the Destroy ending and Shepard survives, I think it would be great to be able to rescue the Normandy crew ourselves with the aid of the remaining ME2 squadmates.
This could be a great gameplay oportunity and it would also give the remaining ME2 squadmates a good use since the war is over and there's nothing holding them back from joining Shepard.
Yes, the Mass Relays are destroyed but maybe in the Extended Cut, with enough EMS, they can be saved? Wishful thinking, yes. Or hell, maybe the planet isn't that far away and it wouldn't be impossible getting there with FTL. "

I'm a huge Miranda, Jack and Samara fan and I would love to see more of them and have them as squadmates and I think that would be a good way to use them.

Modifié par PsychoHitsPeach, 07 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[MisterJB]

What's the Council or the Alliance going to do? Send warships to apprehend her while Earth, Pallaven and Thessia burn? Sound strategy.
Shepard can get the krogan and turians to cooperate and stop the war between quarians and geth. He can stop his xo from being arrested on his own bloody ship.

[flemm]

Well, also, that's not the excuse that's used. If anything, it's implied that she could *stay close* if she didn't have her father to deal with first. So, there's a difference between Alliance headquarters prior to the Reaper attack and the Normandy afterwards.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[CuseGirl]

MisterJB wrote...
Shepard himself can support her genetic enhancements and try to help her get past her insecurities on the Paragon side of the Romance.

It might be that someone wanted her engineering to come across as "wrong" while Weekes agreed with us

I don't think they wanted her engineering to be wrong, I think they were contriving a situation where: No one gets everything. "You can't be beautiful, smart, a biotic, a tech, a great shooter, great butt, great ******, AND have the chance to give those genes to some1 else, we need to balance your existence, so we do that by taking away the one thing most organisms value the most, the ability to reproduce". Also, they were probably setting up a situation where underneath all that "ice", there's something Miranda wants badly and at this moment cannot acheive it....

We can all agree something got lost during development....

[TomY90]

jtav wrote...

And you know Miranda being Cerberus 2IC is a perfectly respectable justification for her not being on the squad. Miranda's right; the Alliance and Council have standing orders for her capture and execution. They can accept her help under the table, but not overtly. She's too high-ranking for that. Shepard may be a Spectre, but that only goes so far.

There. A decent excuse that doesn't make Miranda a fool.

I somehow doubt the alliance and the council will put a capital offence on Miranda considering she did save the councils lives before in Mass Effect Galaxy (i believe thats what the iphone game was called) and considering she is now against cerberus, they wont do anything now.

at best Miranda will get questionned about everything with cerberus and what goes on there but the alliance and council are happy for people to change sides look at all those ex cerberus agents working for the alliance on the crucilble project and Gabby and Ken got let free and work with the alliance.

Plus the links with Shepard and bringing back the council's most famous spectre back deserves an official pardon and not forgetting the council have a lot more pressing issues like stopping there races going extinct to worry about a former cerberus agent.

I know in ME3 she said she was second in command but its not actualy true she was in command of the lazarus project (being 6 of projects at the time if i recall) which all project leaders only respond directly to TIM, which makes it that she was one of 6 second in commands. so she cant be truly held for running a huge amount of cerberus as you would expect from a second in command.

and her cell actually did alot of good work from what we know with Shepard (dont know if lazarus cell worked on the normandy as well)

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

We can all agree something got lost during development....

Indeed. So many things, really.

*shakes head*

MisterJB wrote...

Shepard himself can support her genetic enhancements and try to help her get past her insecurities on the Paragon side of the Romance.

It might be that someone wanted her engineering to come across as "wrong" while Weekes agreed with us

Agreed, I think this is an important point to remember. The insecurity is introduced alongside the possibility of Miranda growing beyond that insecurity. "You give your father too much credit."  "He gave you gifts, etc."

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[hot_heart]

Weekes wrote Cronos? Does that mean he did all those terrible moustache-twirling video logs?
"Turns out we really are super evil but we hid that from Shepard really quite well, I thought."

The talk about the 'femme fatale' stuff got me thinking about Chinatown (fantastic, must-see film). I won't spoil anything, but I think there could be possible (minor) parallels drawn between that and Miranda, even if the film subverts a lot of noir norms. Although, thankfully, the stuff with Miranda is nowhere near as dark.

I always interpreted the infertility thing as a bit of character-building. Reinforces that motherly instinct towards Oriana. Of course, I try to look on the positive side of things.

[o Ventus]

Yeah... Shepard would have no problem pardoning Miranda. As a Spectre, he can essentially overrule their judgement with his word alone.

Not to mention he could bring up her saving the Council in Galaxy, or her helping to stop the Collectors.

[Skullheart]

Jack is a wanted criminal in a lot os systems, and the Alliance offered a teaching position on Grissom Academy.

Miranda has being on the run from Cerberus, she has assaulted some of their bases, she delivered the location of Cronos, but she can't receive any kind of indult. This is nice.

[Dr. Doctor]

o Ventus wrote...

Yeah... Shepard would have no problem pardoning Miranda. As a Spectre, he can essentially overrule their judgement with his word alone.

Shepard wouldn't even have to say a word, all he'd have to do is hit the "pardon Miranda Lawson" button in the Spectre office.

[cbutz]

A little off topic, but according to the Fanbook thread, if we want a Miranda DLC, the devs will need to see that there is a demand for it. I think they said along the lines of, if the fans want it. So if we want DLC were gonna have to have to constantly remind them about it. Of course this would be in a non-spammy way but more of a constant applied pressure.

In regards to the alliance accepting her, it like what she said in the game. The alliance can't be picky now.

[cg8900]

so, there's a Miranda T-shirt coming out  cdon.se/musik/mass_effect_3/t-shirt_-_miranda_2_%28s%29-18545326

I'm so getting it  

[Skullheart]

The only thing we can expect regarding content about her is the flashback. No way they'll change the story just for one character.