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[Attila 6]

yes flemm you are right but what I dont understand why she killed him instead runaway from him.

[flemm]

Attila 6 wrote...

yes flemm you are right but what I dont understand why she killed him instead runaway from him.

Well, in ME2 he's a shadowy figure, apparently influential. He must be brilliant. Cerberus and TIM are powerful and influential enough to prevent him from attacking Miranda directly, but the implication is that Henry is extremely formidable and has a lot of resources of his own. So, it's like a stand-off.

Problem is, in ME3, he amounts to nothing. One has the impression that Miranda could have squashed him like a bug at any time, even as a child.

So... that's problematic.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 10:39 .

[hot_heart]

I got the sense that she didn't really wish death on him; just to get her and Ori away from his control. He was still her father after all. She may have resented his plans for her, I think it would take much more to inspire an extreme solution.

It's the stuff at Sanctuary and what transpires with Ori that pushes her over the edge, understandably.

Modifié par hot_heart, 07 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[jtav]

Because there would be no story otherwise.

I imagine there's a part of Miranda that's still a child who could be cowed by Henry. Facing down an abuser who is also her father isn't easy, no matter how cowardly he is now. But there needed to be a confrontation.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
I imagine there's a part of Miranda that's still a child who could be cowed by Henry. Facing down an abuser who is also her father isn't easy, no matter how cowardly he is now. But there needed to be a confrontation.

Well, yes to the confrontation, but I think he needed to be formidable. Not physically, but mentally he would need to be impressive. Making him a non-entity who comes across as a coward and a bit of a fool really doesn't fit.

[o Ventus]

There really should have been a confrontation. 2 words doesn't cut it.

Why would there be a part of Miranda still capable of being cowed by Henry, especially when Shepard and Oriana are there?

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 avril 2012 - 10:47 .

[Attila 6]

flemm or anyone thought about why is she says suddenly "Goodbye" at the end, and when Shepard break up with her she crys and leaves.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

Why would there be a part of Miranda still capable of being cowed by Henry, especially when Shepard and Oriana are there?

Well, with the right characterisation, it might have felt right. If he came across as brilliant and domineering. He could be physically defenseless and still come across as formidable.

But hiding behind Oriana? No.

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[o Ventus]

Attila 6 wrote...

flemm or anyone thought about why is she says suddenly "Goodbye" at the end, and when Shepard break up with her she crys and leaves.

She wants to say goodbye because she knows that the two of them may not be alive at the end, and even if they are, everything will be different. Shepard of course can instill some confidence in her, with Miranda telling Shepard to find her once all of this was over with.

I have never broken up with Miranda, so I can't answer that one. I'm still curious as to what Shepard's reasons were for ending the relationship. She still felt for him and trusted him, so what the hell? If it was "I don't want to hurt you by getting close and dying", then why did he kickstart the relationship in ME2 (The game based around the SUICIDe mission)?

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 avril 2012 - 10:51 .

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Why would there be a part of Miranda still capable of being cowed by Henry, especially when Shepard and Oriana are there?

Well, with the right characterisation, it might have felt right. If he came across as brilliant and domineering. He could be physically defenseless and still come across as formidable.

But hiding behind Oriana? No.

My point was that Oriana and Shepard (Especially if Shepard is romanced) being beacons of hope for Miranda, overpowering Henry's beacon of control and despair.


... That sounded so cheesy.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

My point was that Oriana and Shepard (Especially if Shepard is romanced) being beacons of hope for Miranda, overpowering Henry's beacon of control and despair.


... That sounded so cheesy.

Heh, a bit

But yeah, this confrontation should be about Miranda overcoming the obstacle her father represents, and thus her basic insecurity about her origins. But for that to work, two things need to happen:

1) The father has to represent an obstacle. He can't just be a non-entity. Doesn't mean it should be a boss fight, but the reason he has been an obstacle to this otherwise extremely remarkable person's psychological well-being has to be clear.

2) Some character growth has to come of it. That's the whole point of having a character confront her demons, after all. 

[hot_heart]

o Ventus wrote...
I have never broken up with Miranda, so I can't answer that one. I'm still curious as to what Shepard's reasons were for ending the relationship.

Because...Liara

Seriously, though, I think that's something you justify to yourself. I'd never do it, but maybe some considered it a fling in the first place? Maybe they're the bastards.

I mean, we all know it was just put in so you do have 'options' when it comes to romancing people.

[jtav]

I thought he came across as brilliant, but cowardly. And that could have worked if Miranda realized he was a coward. "I can't believe a ran from you. You're an insect." Miranda didn't need a physical victory, but a psychological one.

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

My point was that Oriana and Shepard (Especially if Shepard is romanced) being beacons of hope for Miranda, overpowering Henry's beacon of control and despair.


... That sounded so cheesy.

Heh, a bit

But yeah, this confrontation should be about Miranda overcoming the obstacle her father represents, and thus her basic insecurity about her origins. But for that to work, two things need to happen:

1) The father has to represent an obstacle. He can't just be a non-entity. Doesn't mean it should be a boss fight, but the reason he has been an obstacle to this otherwise extremely remarkable person's psychological well-being has to be clear.

2) Some character growth has to come of it. That's the whole point of having a character confront her demons, after all. 

I know. I never disagreed with that. I was just clarifying what I meant.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Miranda didn't need a physical victory, but a psychological one.

Agreed. It's a given that Miranda is physically able to defeat him. The hold he has over her should be psychological. But there is no evidence of that in the confrontation.

If all that was necessary for her to be free was for her to kill him, then there really should have been no problem in the first place.

I guess that would be another way of articulating the problem. ME3 ignores the psychological side of things, and just focuses on Miranda killing her father. But really Miranda killing her father is irrelevant without some exploration of the psychological side of things.

o Ventus wrote...


I know. I never disagreed with that. I was just clarifying what I meant.

Right, that's what I meant by "but yeah..." I was just adding some additional thoughts, not contradicting yours, sorry

Modifié par flemm, 07 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

[Attila 6]

Yes o Ventus but what dont understand is why didn`t she said "goodbye" much before the end. My own theory is that she was afraid again of the future. Think about that her father is gone TIM will be gone Shepard survives so what is she afraid of in the future if both came back alive?

[o Ventus]

Attila 6 wrote...

Yes o Ventus but what dont understand is why didn`t she said "goodbye" much before the end. My own theory is that she was afraid again of the future. Think about that her father is gone TIM will be gone Shepard survives so what is she afraid of in the future if both came back alive?

She has no idea that Shepard will survive. Hell, she isn't she that she'll survive either.

[Attila 6]

Yes but she talk like, that she considering the chance that they both survive the war. I think she afraid that she can`t give Shepard a proper future: marriage (past with Cerberus),children(infertility).

[o Ventus]

Attila 6 wrote...

Yes but she talk like, that she considering the chance that they both survive the war. I think she afraid that she can`t give Shepard a proper future: marriage (past with Cerberus),children(infertility).

Possibly. I could totally understand Miranda being a little uneasy about not being able to bear a progeny. Honestly, that part would depend on your Shepard and how he handles it. My Shepard genuinely cares about HER though, so for him, not being able to conceive (Even though the infertility should be a snap fix) is a non-issue. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to marry. There's nothing technically stopping them (Or any of the romances that survive/aren't stranded).

I detected her tone to be more "What if we don't make it?" though.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 avril 2012 - 11:10 .

[Attila 6]

yes don`t get me wrong my shepard care about her even if she infertile and I know they can be married but it seems to me that Miranda even if she loves Shepard (and she loves him better than Ashley that is 100% sure). I think she is willing to let him go on the end.

[jtav]

I think her tone in the last convo is just her usual pessimism. Remember she spent ME2 thinking she was probably going to die.

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

I think her tone in the last convo is just her usual pessimism. Remember she spent ME2 thinking she was probably going to die.

This.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                        

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 07 avril 2012 - 11:24 .

[o Ventus]

I love that moment in the game. Easily one of my favorites.

[Attila 6]

Yeah I agree she is more than beautiful