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[CrutchCricket]

kookie28 wrote...

Would someone hit me with a truck if I asked who Grayson is? I don't read the novels.

lol no worries. Yeah he's from the novels. Gets introduced in Ascension and is the focus of Retribution. If you want more Mass Effect, more well-written Mass Effect, if the RGB hasn't completely killed your interest in the franchise I recommend reading the books. They're by Drew Karpyshyn so you know they're good:

Revelation
Ascension
Retribution

[kookie28]

CrutchCricket wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Would someone hit me with a truck if I asked who Grayson is? I don't read the novels.

lol no worries. Yeah he's from the novels. Gets introduced in Ascension and is the focus of Retribution. If you want more Mass Effect, more well-written Mass Effect, if the RGB hasn't completely killed your interest in the franchise I recommend reading the books. They're by Drew Karpyshyn so you know they're good:

Revelation
Ascension
Retribution

Ok.  Didn't Drew write ME1 and ME2?

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
It's not a given that you might make that connection. Besides Miranda's obviously evasive when Shepard asks who her father is. She just dismisses his question with "a businessman". So clearly she doesn't want to ID him that easily. But if Lawson's that famous even "a businessman" might be too much information. So why would she say that. She slipped? Not likely. Bad writing? Doubful, that scene was pretty well written overall. The only remaining conclusion is that "a buisnessman" really isn't that big a clue. Ergo not everyone knows Lawson or automatically thinks of him everytime that name is mentioned.

No, the bad writing is in ME3 with him being called "Lawson".
And the bad writing is not restricted simply to the fact that Shepard should have recognized the name of the richest man in the galaxy.
Before ME2, we have never heard the surname "Lawson" in the ME universe.
What if Miranda had introduced herself as Miranda Exogeni or Helix which are stupid names for a person but bear with me. That would have been a shock because the players have dealt with these companies before.
We hadn't dealt with the Lawson Industries, we have never even heard of Henry Lawson before ME3 so, he just comes out of nowhere.
It's like the Shadow Broker being an entirely new species. It just leaves no impact on the player.

Hey I agree. But I guess he's only human. Even he has vices, weaknesses. I think that was the point of that list.

Well, that is what Eva Core is for.
Don't tell he didn't have second and third intentions when he chose to model and name her after his old flame.

[jtav]

The books are actually pretty dreadful from a technical standpoint, but they're easy reading and a good source of lore.

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
No, the bad writing is in ME3 with him being called "Lawson".
And the bad writing is not restricted simply to the fact that Shepard should have recognized the name of the richest man in the galaxy.
Before ME2, we have never heard the surname "Lawson" in the ME universe.
What if Miranda had introduced herself as Miranda Exogeni or Helix which are stupid names for a person but bear with me. That would have been a shock because the players have dealt with these companies before.
We hadn't dealt with the Lawson Industries, we have never even heard of Henry Lawson before ME3 so, he just comes out of nowhere.
It's like the Shadow Broker being an entirely new species. It just leaves no impact on the player.

Who says it's Lawson Industries? Look the point is it's a common surname and despite the fact that we see some pretty remarkable people sporting it, it itself does nothing to attract attention anymore than "Smith" or "Jones".
And I disagree that we needed to know of Lawson or the Shadow Broker's species before we saw them. So many company names were thrown around in ME1 that I didn't give a **** about any of them. If they happened to be relevant to the problem at hand fine, if not they're part of the scenery. And this is a perfectly plausible way of thinking for Shepard as well. And the Shadow Broker would've actually been disappointing if he been a run of the mill salarian or turian or be made bull**** tough like Vasir. Apart from the Reapers the yahg are the most dangerous things in this series and what better way to introduce them then by having one be the most powerful person in the galaxy? The Shadow Broker impressed the hell out of me.

Well, that is what Eva Core is for.
Don't tell he didn't have second and third intentions when he chose to model and name her after his old flame.

Interesting question implied here. Does one ever get tired of a sexbot? Guess we'll never know...

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 09 avril 2012 - 09:35 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

The books are actually pretty dreadful from a technical standpoint, but they're easy reading and a good source of lore.

Technical standpoint?

Anyway Drew co-wrote ME2 with Walters, kookie.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Who says it's Lawson Industries? Look the point is it's a common surname and despite the fact that we see some pretty remarkable people sporting it, it itself does nothing to attract attention anymore than "Smith" or "Jones".

But when Miranda says that her father is an influential businessman, Shepard's first tought should be "Henry Lawson?"
How many rich Lawsons are there?

And I disagree that we needed to know of Lawson or the Shadow Broker's species before we saw them. So many company names were thrown around in ME1 that I didn't give a **** about any of them. If they happened to be relevant to the problem at hand fine, if not they're part of the scenery. And this is a perfectly plausible way of thinking for Shepard as well. And the Shadow Broker would've actually been disappointing if he been a run of the mill salarian or turian or be made bull**** tough like Vasir. Apart from the Reapers the yahg are the most dangerous things in this series and what better way to introduce them then by having one be the most powerful person in the galaxy? The Shadow Broker impressed the hell out of me.

When you make your fans try to discover the identity of one of your characters, then that character must be, at least, related to something you have already introduced in your story.
I don't want the SB to be a run of the mill turian. I want the SB to be The Illusive Man, or Liara's father or a secret division of the Council like the Spectres.
It simply has to be something that we already knew about. A random yahg works as well as this:

"Before you die there is something you should know about us, Lone Star.
What?
I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
What's that make us?
Absolutely nothing!"

[MrNose]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...

The books are actually pretty dreadful from a technical standpoint, but they're easy reading and a good source of lore.

Technical standpoint?

Anyway Drew co-wrote ME2 with Walters, kookie.

They aren't spectacularly well edited, and the writing is fairly utilitarian.  You never really get the feeling that you just saw something really impressive done with words, but the plots work well.  I recommend them.  

Modifié par MrNose, 09 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[MrNose]

MisterJB wrote...

It simply has to be something that we already knew about. A random yahg works as well as this:

"Before you die there is something you should know about us, Lone Star.
What?
I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
What's that make us?
Absolutely nothing!"

I think the Yahg worked well because it played with our expectations.  We found out who the Shadow Broker was, but then once we did, we still didn't know who the Shadow Broker was....  Because they were a freaking Yahg!  Suddenly we went from "who" to "what" and "how"?  It was thematically consistent with the nature of the SB, to be unknown and mysterious.

Lawson didn't work as well because we had Miranda being evasive, which seemed like foreshadowing, and then it didn't really come to anything.  I have no real problem with this.  Its not bad, just not  good.  If you gave me my druthers, I wouldn't pick "Henry Lawson backstory" as the one thing I would add to ME3's Miranda plot.  

[Caihn]

Just wanted to make a wallpaper before going to sleep, here it is :

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
But when Miranda says that her father is an influential businessman, Shepard's first tought should be "Henry Lawson?"
How many rich Lawsons are there?

Apparently it's obscure enough that Miranda feels secure in saying it when she doesn't want Shep to figure it out.

When you make your fans try to discover the identity of one of your characters, then that character must be, at least, related to something you have already introduced in your story.
I don't want the SB to be a run of the mill turian. I want the SB to be The Illusive Man, or Liara's father or a secret division of the Council like the Spectres.
It simply has to be something that we already knew about. A random yahg works as well as this:

"Before you die there is something you should know about us, Lone Star.
What?
I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
What's that make us?
Absolutely nothing!"

Bonus points for Spaceballs reference but really, no it doesn't. The actual identity of the Shadow Broker is irrelevant. Liara doesn't want to expose him, she wants to kill his ass. So he's Bob the Yahg. Who cares? Bob the Yahg vs that one guy we encountered in ME1 makes no difference to the overall formula (there's the Shadow Broker, kill his ass). What does make a difference is how impressive his presentation is and Bob the Yahg certainly delivers.

Henry Lawson on the other hand does not. Put it this way. Say you had met Lawson randomly on the Citadel back in ME1. Maybe he was even a sidequest giver. So Sanctuary rolls around and you see him and it's like "holy ****, YOU??" (I'm assuming that's what you're going for?). That's all well and good. Except we're still expecting something awesome, something Bob the Yahgish in nature and instead we get... some chump. Even with that shock value, which is the better and more memorable encounter? Bob the Yahg.

It's not just about setting up characters before hand. They also actually have to be impressive. And the latter is more important than the former.

As a side note, I don't know about the rest of you but the Shadow Broker is now Bob the Yahg to me.:happy:

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 09 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[CrutchCricket]

MrNose wrote...
They aren't spectacularly well edited, and the writing is fairly utilitarian.  You never really get the feeling that you just saw something really impressive done with words, but the plots work well.  I recommend them.  

True, they are pretty barebones. But enjoyable nonetheless.

[Dr. Doctor]

The ME novels done by Drew Karpyshyn aren't anything special, but if you're really into the game they're pretty good fluff. Now, if you like Drew's work and you're a Star Wars fan read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, he's the man who wrote KOTOR and that fact really shows in the book.

[CrutchCricket]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The ME novels done by Drew Karpyshyn aren't anything special, but if you're really into the game they're pretty good fluff. Now, if you like Drew's work and you're a Star Wars fan read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, he's the man who wrote KOTOR and that fact really shows in the book.

YES! The Darth Bane trilogy is by far my favorite EU work for Star Wars and his portrayal of Bane epitomizes the way of the Sith for me. Based on those books and no serious flop (that I've read) Karpyshyn can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned.

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

Just wanted to make a wallpaper before going to sleep, here it is :

*snip*

Beautiful, thanks

[ADLegend21]

*pokes head in* I don't normally post here, not like you need me to with all these pages of discussion, but I've reached the suicide mission in my Femsheps headcanon and I figured I'd write it from the perspective if the fire team leader, and that's Miranda's! Let me know how it reads, I'm always looking for constructive feedback.

"XO Lawson"

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Apparently it's obscure enough that Miranda feels secure in saying it when she doesn't want Shep to figure it out.

The richest person in the entire galaxy is obscure? C'mon, it makes no sense.

Bonus points for Spaceballs reference but really, no it doesn't. The actual identity of the Shadow Broker is irrelevant. Liara doesn't want to expose him, she wants to kill his ass. So he's Bob the Yahg. Who cares? Bob the Yahg vs that one guy we encountered in ME1 makes no difference to the overall formula (there's the Shadow Broker, kill his ass). What does make a difference is how impressive his presentation is and Bob the Yahg certainly delivers.

First, honestly, I don't think he delivered. He tried to came of as omniscient but once Liara got lucky with a guess, he start acting like a gorilla. Ultimately, the SB was downplayed to make Liara seems more impressive, a better information broker maybe.

Second, the fact that the overrall formula is basically "Let's kill the Shadow Broker" is not something to be praised or preserved. Let's say that the Shadow Broker was a sub-division of the Spectres.
The SB himself could still be Bob the Salarian and it would still be automatically more interesting because it adds a third element to it. The same thing happens with the SB being Liara's father or a sub-division of the asari government, etc.

With Bob the Yagh there is no reveal, there is no conflict. It's simple "Let's kill the Shadow Broker. The Shadow Broker is dead".

Henry Lawson on the other hand does not. Put it this way. Say you had met Lawson randomly on the Citadel back in ME1. Maybe he was even a sidequest giver. So Sanctuary rolls around and you see him and it's like "holy ****, YOU??" (I'm assuming that's what you're going for?). That's all well and good. Except we're still expecting something awesome, something Bob the Yahgish in nature and instead we get... some chump. Even with that shock value, which is the better and more memorable encounter? Bob the Yahg.

It's not just about setting up characters before hand. They also actually have to be impressive. And the latter is more important than the former.

Henry Lawson maybe not have been what we expected him to be but he was still a much better character than the yagh. For one, he had a personality.

Anyway, how memorable Henry Lawson's presentation in the game is more important that how he was set up.
(And he was actually set up very well. He seemed very impressive back in ME2.)
But that still doesn't mean that setting him up beforehand loses all of it's importance in face of his actual presentation.
Both are important and both should not be ignored.

Just imagine if you had heard the name "Illusive Man" whenever you dealt with Cerberus in ME1. Then, in ME2, Miranda says "We're taking you to meet The Illusive Man".
How much more hyped for that encounter you would have been?

[Dr. Doctor]

@ MisterJB

After the entrance to Sanctuary turned out to be underwater I pictured Mr. Lawson being a lot like Andrew Ryan with a healthy dose of Lionel Luthor.

[Vertigo_1]

Don't mean to interupt but todays update, if you got it via Origin's "Check for Updates" menu option, replaces all flashback files that were altered.  So you will have to redownload them from here: social.bioware.com/group/7074/

Just a fair warning so that if you get to the end of the game and you don't see Miranda's wink, then you know why
(Looking at implementing an ME3 one this week!)

Oh and if you missed the announcement before, we created a group here: social.bioware.com/group/7217/ to gather up Miranda fanfic, art and letters (which ever you prefer to do) to send on over to Bioware.

[MisterJB]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ MisterJB

with a healthy dose of Lionel Luthor.

Everything from "Emotional reactions" to "raised you in my image" really does seem like something Henry would tell his "creation".

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 avril 2012 - 11:28 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
The richest person in the entire galaxy is obscure? C'mon, it makes no sense.

Yeah, it is what it is. And I'm still taking that statement as exaggeration.

First, honestly, I don't think he delivered. He tried to came of as omniscient but once Liara got lucky with a guess, he start acting like a gorilla. Ultimately, the SB was downplayed to make Liara seems more impressive, a better information broker maybe.

Second, the fact that the overrall formula is basically "Let's kill the Shadow Broker" is not something to be praised or preserved. Let's say that the Shadow Broker was a sub-division of the Spectres.
The SB himself could still be Bob the Salarian and it would still be automatically more interesting because it adds a third element to it. The same thing happens with the SB being Liara's father or a sub-division of the asari government, etc.

With Bob the Yagh there is no reveal, there is no conflict. It's simple "Let's kill the Shadow Broker. The Shadow Broker is dead".

I don't think he was supposed to come off as omniscient at all. He came off as what the yahg are set up to be: genius bruisers. You say the individual suffered because of a lack of prior characterization. I say the individual was successfully used to exemplify a very intriguing new addition the world.
And I disagree that another connection to established lore would've made it more interesting. Like with the Lawson example, which we'll get to, you can add as many connections as you want and the ultimate presentation still wouldn't be as exciting if it was a salarian. Because we're already used to salarians. They're old news. The yahg on the other hand are fresh and exciting and one-up just about every other race we've encountered.

Henry Lawson maybe not have been what we expected him to be but he was still a much better character than the yagh. For one, he had a personality.

Anyway, how memorable Henry Lawson's presentation in the game is more important that how he was set up.
(And he was actually set up very well. He seemed very impressive back in ME2.)
But that still doesn't mean that setting him up beforehand loses all of it's importance in face of his actual presentation.
Both are important and both should not be ignored.

A personality that's barely there, and one that has to be spoon fed to us before hand. Ask a new player just coming into ME3 without playing the second game what Lawson's personality is? Chances are you'll only get a blank stare. Lawson was a meat sack that utterly failed to impress. His job could've been done by a Loki mech. Hold Oriana at gunpoint, let her go, get tossed out a window.

The underlined. You just agreed with me. And no I don't think one should be sacrificed for another. But you can get away with skimping or forgetting prior setup if you do a good presentation, whereas the opposite is not true. Hell (and I may blaspheme for saying this) but even the damn holokid, the bane of our existence, would've gotten a better reaction if his presentation had rocked our faces off. If instead of going "wtf why are we listening to some virtual half-pint spout some bull**** about synthetics?" we would've been blown back by some totally terrifying "super reaper" some people might've let it slide even if it came at us with the same bull**** logic. Presentation. Powerful stuff.

Just imagine if you had heard the name "Illusive Man" whenever you dealt with Cerberus in ME1. Then, in ME2, Miranda says "We're taking you to meet The Illusive Man".
How much more hyped for that encounter you would have been?

More hyped yes. But then if he turned out to be some chump, I would've been more disappointed too. Like with Lawson.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 09 avril 2012 - 11:30 .

[MisterJB]

https://www.youtube....JdRzqkw#t=2m54s
More Lost references.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[ThePinkFoxx]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Just letting everyone know that the group has been created and can be found here: social.bioware.com/group/7217/

Totally getting in on this. I sent a request.
Is there any set deadline or anything, please make it at least 4-6weeks

[flemm]

ThePinkFoxx wrote...

Totally getting in on this. I sent a request.
Is there any set deadline or anything, please make it at least 4-6weeks

We'd love to have you contribute

At the moment there is no set deadline. We are not in a rush, but we are planning on moving steadily forward. What I can promise you is that, once a deadline is in sight, we will give everyone plenty of advanced notice, here in the thread and in the group.

[ThePinkFoxx]

flemm wrote...

ThePinkFoxx wrote...

Totally getting in on this. I sent a request.
Is there any set deadline or anything, please make it at least 4-6weeks

We'd love to have you contribute

At the moment there is no set deadline. We are not in a rush, but we are planning on moving steadily forward. What I can promise you is that, once a deadline is in sight, we will give everyone plenty of advanced notice, here in the thread and in the group.

Fantastic! I have a few pieces of art I'm working on, but also a cosplay. Would anyone object to adding in a few photos of that when it's finished?