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[Mandalorian9]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Yeah, Miranda thread needs more Miranda discussion. Hey speaking of space wiki, I wonder how ME history books will show Miranda. How will they report on her involvement in the Reaper crisis?

Good question, alot of what she has done will probably remain classified, but they will definetely mention her service to humanity and the galaxy. Her involvement with Cerberus will definetely be spun as a good thing since she left with Shepard before Cerberus sided with the Reapers.The suicide mission, her dedication to her family, alot I imagine. If you romance her I'd imagine she'd be one of the most famous figures in the galaxy. Miranda Shepard., the wife who helped Shepard save the galaxy. She would surely be a role model to women who seek leadership roles as well. What about you?

[jtav]

I think she'll be a controversial figure. Because, well, she was a pretty dark figure. We don't see much of it keep her sympathetic, but paragons don't become Cerberus 2IC. Lots of debate about how much she really knew about Cerberus atrocities.

[Mandalorian9]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have a much higher hurdle to overcome. I can't overcome my distaste for the Destroy option so I must use fanfic and space magic for a reunion. Not ideal, but if Bioware can use a giant conflagration of space magic to transform all intelligent life in the galaxy, I can use a much smaller amount to make Shepard come back. I envy those who can take the Destroy option - they have a chance that the Extended Cut will give them a reunion scene.

Wait, you can't comprehend the destroy option or just don't like the whole "kill Geth, EDI, and sorta kill synthetic" option along with destroying the mass relays.....

What boggles my mind is that even though I picked the destroy option EDI walks out of the Normany just fine at the end, which means that the god child was either lying to you or isn't as wise as we are led to believe.

[Ieldra]

@CrutchCricket:
I'm using the "relays are only damaged in Control" premise for my "out of the dark age" scenario as one option. Casper says that "releasing the energy of the Crucible will end the cycle and destroy the mass relays", but the thing is, neither happens - the energy isn't fully released (no giant energy beam) and controlling the Reapers doesn't necessarily end the cycle. Theoretically, Shepard could just go on Reaperizing. So, the side effect - destruction of the relays - also doesn't happen.

I agree that the prospect of Shepard's ascension is appealing but I'd rather use a little more space magic and let Shepard come back to Miranda after the Synthesis AND have the potential to acquire all that knowledge. Yeah, strictly fanfiction, but since the Synthesis space magic is trivial compared to "mere" FTL I think I can get away with it.

BTW:
Would you be fine with the three options for the final choice if they weren't presented through Casper or a similar entity?

@Mandalorian9:
I'm not planning anything but worldbuilding at this time. I have enough RP in RL.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[cbutz]

Not to interrupt the convo, just a quick reminder the LIA project 2 is ongoing. It is regarding the relationship between Miranda and Shepard, or Shep and (insert LI). This is another way of getting Bioware's attention. Here is the thread for those who do not know : http://social.biowar...ndex/11315889/1


On topic: Miranda will be remembered favorably. Depending on how far the history is.
Positives: Ressurected Shepard, second in command when stopping the collectors. Stopped Cerberus in Sanctuary, Aided the Alliance against Cerberus, Fought the Reapers.

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have a much higher hurdle to overcome. I can't overcome my distaste for the Destroy option so I must use fanfic and space magic for a reunion. Not ideal, but if Bioware can use a giant conflagration of space magic to transform all intelligent life in the galaxy, I can use a much smaller amount to make Shepard come back. I envy those who can take the Destroy option - they have a chance that the Extended Cut will give them a reunion scene.

Wait, you can't comprehend the destroy option or just don't like the whole "kill Geth, EDI, and sorta kill synthetic" option along with destroying the mass relays.....

Sorry, I misphrased. I can't bear to use the Destroy option. I don't want to destroy anything, including the Reapers, if I have other options. Selecting a non-Destroy option after the Reapers have, thankfully *sigh of relief" been demystified is, so to speak, my antidote against the overly technoskeptic tendency of the whole ME trilogy with its plethora of "science is bad" and "nature knows best" moments. Miranda is the best example with the way they made her unable to pass on her genetic improvements in LotSB. *Grrr* *fumes*

And that thrice damned Garden Eden scene in the end. I'd take two more Caspers to purge that pseudo-idyllic luddite's dream scenario from the game - and my mind.

All right, enough with the rant. Miranda....

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have a much higher hurdle to overcome. I can't overcome my distaste for the Destroy option so I must use fanfic and space magic for a reunion. Not ideal, but if Bioware can use a giant conflagration of space magic to transform all intelligent life in the galaxy, I can use a much smaller amount to make Shepard come back. I envy those who can take the Destroy option - they have a chance that the Extended Cut will give them a reunion scene.

Wait, you can't comprehend the destroy option or just don't like the whole "kill Geth, EDI, and sorta kill synthetic" option along with destroying the mass relays.....

Sorry, I misphrased. I can't bear to use the Destroy option. I don't want to destroy anything, including the Reapers, if I have other options. Selecting a non-Destroy option after the Reapers have, thankfully *sigh of relief" been demystified is, so to speak, my antidote against the overly technoskeptic tendency of the whole ME trilogy with its plethora of "science is bad" and "nature knows best" moments. Miranda is the best example with the way they made her unable to pass on her genetic improvements in LotSB. *Grrr* *fumes*

I dont think it's "science is bad", I think it's "science has consequences". Miranda is a prime example, according to the writers: you can't create perfect. It's a contrived story thread, obviously, but it is what it is. But on the flip side, nature doesn't know best. They show us that with Samara and her children. Actually, Samara is almost like the reproductive mirror of Miranda: She loves her children, even attempted to have more children after she found out her first was an Ardat-Yakshi. She tried to buck her own genetics but couldn't.

The quarians use science to extend their existence. So it isn't ALL "science is bad". I know I don't convey this with as much sophistication as you do but I hope you understand what I'm saying. I still think the endings are just poorly written, not purposely making a statement against science. Either way, I personally can't handle any situation which allows the Reapers to not die. That's what I worked for all this time and I won't accept the nonsense that there's a benefit to "preserving organics", because it still means killing them.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 13 avril 2012 - 04:55 .

[MisterJB]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
Why do I get the feeling that Miranda would neglect to mention this to Shepard beforehand?

I like to think Miranda would tell Shepard what she was planning to do.
For one, no matter how Paragon, Shepard is depicted as "willing to cross a few lines". Stealing the Normandy, working with Cerberus, destroying the Bahak system, all of those choices are canon.
(Of course, the player should still be given the option of allerting the Council but that is what it should be. An option.)

And then, you were alluding in your dialogue to when TIM sent Shepard blind into the Collector Cruiser which was something Miranda did not approve of.

jtav wrote...

Another attempt at fixing the Cerberus arc, now with added Jack:

Move Gellix and Grissom to the main quest along with Sanctuary and make them each a piece of the puzzle to finding Cerberus. Along the way, a division develops between your allies. Miranda (Brynn if dead) wants to see Cerberus reformed into humanity's STG. Jack (or Kahlee, who remembers Paul and Gillian Grayson all too well) wants it utterly destroyed. You must choose during Cronos. Whichever faction, scientists or biotic kids, you side against leaves. If Jack and Miranda are both alive and loyal, you can convince them that the Reapers are more important and the post-war fate of Cerberus can be decided later.

Sounds good.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@CrutchCricket:

I agree that the prospect of Shepard's ascension is appealing but I'd rather use a little more space magic and let Shepard come back to Miranda after the Synthesis AND have the potential to acquire all that knowledge. Yeah, strictly fanfiction, but since the Synthesis space magic is trivial compared to "mere" FTL I think I can get away with it.

BTW:
Would you be fine with the three options for the final choice if they weren't presented through Casper or a similar entity?

I see it as a one way trip. I see Shepard as ascending but in doing so losing the human perspective and indeed his interest in it. On the cosmic scale, humans (or in this case organics) are insignificant specs, less relevant to the universe then individual atoms are to a body. I call trying to wrap your head around this the cosmic perspective. We can't really imagine but you can trivialize anything and everything in your life this way. Now in our lives there's also the personal perspective that we can't really abandon. We may say that our plight doesn't matter on the cosmic scale but since we're still in the middle of it and we still feel it, it still matters to us.
Now in terms of Shepard and Miranda, their love doesn't matter to the universe but it matters to the two of them from their perspectives. However if that perspective is lost (as I think it would be with ascension) then it truly doesn't matter.

You can force it of course. Have Shepard manifest a human body and still be around Miranda. But I think it would eclipse her character, just being near the vast being he has become.

Ultimately if I went this route I would prefer that she die (never thought I'd write that) and have that death be the severance of his last connection to humanity. It's again similar to Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. Being godlike, human concerns barely even register anymore. He tries to maintain relationships but he steadily falls out of touch. I want to say more but I'll stop here and again recommend the graphic novel or the movie to you.

As for the ending, I don't mind the Catalyst being an AI/VI of some sort. I don't even mind it taking the form of a kid. But it should preferrably have no direct connection to the Reapers, it should certainly not claim to know anything about their motives or to have the ability to influence them directly. It should be more of a guide to using the Crucible. As for the choices, synthesis really has no place here. It's poorly implemented and really far too complex an idea to introduce at the end of a series. They can explore that in further works and on a smaller scale i.e. not just have everyone space magic'd. I'd like to see something like the TRON Legacy ISOs. Hybrid beings just appearing one day and the opportunity to fully explore all the rammifications of that.

Destroy makes little sense in its current form as well. How does shooting that generator or whatever release a "kill all synthetics" wave? And just that notion alone is problematic. Geth are software (i.e. programs) and you may argue the Reapers are as well. If the red wave is just an arbitrary magical "delete programs" wave, how can you possibly set the criteria to just "intelligent" programs? Why doesn't it wipe out all computer systems then? No, no magic space wave for this one. Destroy if implemented, should an actual firing weapon (Death Star -like if you will) that can cut through Reaper shields or simply disrupt them, and a targeting system that can lock on to the Reapers. It has to be physically moved to each system to get in range. Basically the outlines of my ending, perhaps simplified.

Control can be an amplified reverse engineered version of the Reaper indoctrination signal (perhaps created by the first organic race to face them) designed to allow the user to directly enter the Reaper consciousness and overwrite it (with its own or programming of their choice). Since Shepard attempts to do this for all Reapers everywhere his consciousness splits (duplicates?) in all Reapers, hence the ascension.

And of course no relays were harmed in the making of these endings.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Destroy makes little sense in its current form as well. How does shooting that generator or whatever release a "kill all synthetics" wave? And just that notion alone is problematic. Geth are software (i.e. programs) and you may argue the Reapers are as well. If the red wave is just an arbitrary magical "delete programs" wave, how can you possibly set the criteria to just "intelligent" programs? Why doesn't it wipe out all computer systems then? No, no magic space wave for this one.

And of course no relays were harmed in the making of these endings.

No, no, no. Destroy has to have negative consequences. By choosing Destroy, Shepard is taking a stance and declaring organics will live their lives free of the Reaper's influence.
Well, fine. I don't agree with this but that is why there should be multiple endings. However, if you want to end the negative consequences of the Reaper's cycle, then you must give up the positive as well! All of the comodities that the Reapers gave us? They MUST be destroyed as well!
This, of course, includes the Mass Relays and the upgrades that gave the Geth true intelligence.
Which is, most likely, what the Crucible released. A "Kill all Reapers" wave. And, the reason our technology survived it's because it is merely based on Reaper technology. Eezo exists naturally in the galaxy.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
No, no, no. Destroy has to have negative consequences. By choosing Destroy, Shepard is taking a stance and declaring organics will live their lives free of the Reaper's influence.
Well, fine. I don't agree with this but that is why there should be multiple endings. However, if you want to end the negative consequences of the Reaper's cycle, then you must give up the positive as well! All of the comodities that the Reapers gave us? They MUST be destroyed as well!
This, of course, includes the Mass Relays and the upgrades that gave the Geth true intelligence.
Which is, most likely, what the Crucible released. A "Kill all Reapers" wave. And, the reason our technology survived it's because it is merely based on Reaper technology. Eezo exists naturally in the galaxy.

You're... being funny right?

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have a much higher hurdle to overcome. I can't overcome my distaste for the Destroy option so I must use fanfic and space magic for a reunion. Not ideal, but if Bioware can use a giant conflagration of space magic to transform all intelligent life in the galaxy, I can use a much smaller amount to make Shepard come back. I envy those who can take the Destroy option - they have a chance that the Extended Cut will give them a reunion scene.

Wait, you can't comprehend the destroy option or just don't like the whole "kill Geth, EDI, and sorta kill synthetic" option along with destroying the mass relays.....

Sorry, I misphrased. I can't bear to use the Destroy option. I don't want to destroy anything, including the Reapers, if I have other options. Selecting a non-Destroy option after the Reapers have, thankfully *sigh of relief" been demystified is, so to speak, my antidote against the overly technoskeptic tendency of the whole ME trilogy with its plethora of "science is bad" and "nature knows best" moments. Miranda is the best example with the way they made her unable to pass on her genetic improvements in LotSB. *Grrr* *fumes*

I dont think it's "science is bad", I think it's "science has consequences". Miranda is a prime example, according to the writers: you can't create perfect. It's a contrived story thread, obviously, but it is what it is. But on the flip side, nature doesn't know best. They show us that with Samara and her children. Actually, Samara is almost like the reproductive mirror of Miranda: She loves her children, even attempted to have more children after she found out her first was an Ardat-Yakshi. She tried to buck her own genetics but couldn't.

The quarians use science to extend their existence. So it isn't ALL "science is bad". I know I don't convey this with as much sophistication as you do but I hope you understand what I'm saying. I still think the endings are just poorly written, not purposely making a statement against science. Either way, I personally can't handle any situation which allows the Reapers to not die. That's what I worked for all this time and I won't accept the nonsense that there's a benefit to "preserving organics", because it still means killing them.

About the Reapers: I understand your attitude, but I do not think letting the Reapers off the hook means supporting their way of "ascension by destruction". I'd never support that.

About science, I understand what you're saying, and the actual writing is not quite as unbalanced, but the imagery is. For instance, the bad things Cerberus does with science totally dominate the presentation, and even our Science Hero's (Mordin's) prime accomplishment is returning krogan fertility to its natural state, without giving consideration to the fact that they had a sustainable population under the genophage, which means that on average, every krogan female had 2-3 children. 
In the ending the actual writing yet again isn't unbalanced, but that that damnable Garden Eden scene (which I call being caught in a luddite's dream) appears in all endings which puts the lie to the balance.

As for Miranda, I've always thought "perfection" shouldn't have been used in the first place, because there is no absolute measure of perfection. But apart from that, the implication that her genetic engineering resulted in infertility fits the tendency to portray science as bad perfectly. Or perhaps I should restrict this: science that aims at self-improvement is bad. Which is almost as offensive because it promotes a dogma that self-improvement is bad. I think the reason why some people feel the Synthesis has no place in the story is because it paints self-improvement and taking a step forward in evolution as good, while the game so far has always painted it as bad.

[Caihn]

This thread is about Miranda or about the ending ?

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
You're... being funny right?

No.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
No, no, no. Destroy has to have negative consequences. By choosing Destroy, Shepard is taking a stance and declaring organics will live their lives free of the Reaper's influence.
Well, fine. I don't agree with this but that is why there should be multiple endings. However, if you want to end the negative consequences of the Reaper's cycle, then you must give up the positive as well! All of the comodities that the Reapers gave us? They MUST be destroyed as well!
This, of course, includes the Mass Relays and the upgrades that gave the Geth true intelligence.
Which is, most likely, what the Crucible released. A "Kill all Reapers" wave. And, the reason our technology survived it's because it is merely based on Reaper technology. Eezo exists naturally in the galaxy.

You're... being funny right?

What's so funny about it? Indeed it is totally in the spirit of the Destroy ending that the relays are destroyed as well, while it's totally in the spririt of Control that they are not. I'd say the destroy option destroys all Reaper-based hardware, which includes EDI but not necessarily the geth because they only have Reaper code.

@all:
Oops, sorry about the extended OT excursion. Miranda is still awesome.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think she'll be a controversial figure. Because, well, she was a pretty dark figure. We don't see much of it keep her sympathetic, but paragons don't become Cerberus 2IC. Lots of debate about how much she really knew about Cerberus atrocities.

Yep, that's what I'd think as well. Also depending on the cultural climate, "the woman who defeated death" might be controversial in itself.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I got a completely different impression, namely, that she thought all the hubbub made about Shepard was completely exaggerated and that no man or woman could possibly live up to such a hype. The "bloody icon" indicates sarcasm. That's supported by what she says later during the romance - that she'd thought Shepard couldn't be that great leader everyone thought he was, but now she has reconsidered and apologizes.

I could see why someone would get that impression. Though I never did. At least not completely.

She talks up his accomplishments, and she's frustrated that they've got him fighting Geth. Plus, she does appreciate what Shepard stands for.

I imagine the intent for the scene was to set up the background info so Miranda's dialogue is probably just a neutral viewpoint for exposition's sake (not exactly the best kind of writing). Possibly an inconsistency in characterisation.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
No, no, no. Destroy has to have negative consequences. By choosing Destroy, Shepard is taking a stance and declaring organics will live their lives free of the Reaper's influence.
Well, fine. I don't agree with this but that is why there should be multiple endings. However, if you want to end the negative consequences of the Reaper's cycle, then you must give up the positive as well! All of the comodities that the Reapers gave us? They MUST be destroyed as well!
This, of course, includes the Mass Relays and the upgrades that gave the Geth true intelligence.
Which is, most likely, what the Crucible released. A "Kill all Reapers" wave. And, the reason our technology survived it's because it is merely based on Reaper technology. Eezo exists naturally in the galaxy.

You're... being funny right?

What's so funny about it? Indeed it is totally in the spirit of the Destroy ending that the relays are destroyed as well, while it's totally in the spririt of Control that they are not. I'd say the destroy option destroys all Reaper-based hardware, which includes EDI but not necessarily the geth because they only have Reaper code.

@all:
Oops, sorry about the extended OT excursion. Miranda is still awesome.

Hardly. I see no necessary correlation between destroying the Reapers and rejecting all of their technology and I'm surprised you "keep the CB" people would actually endorse this.

[MisterJB]

You want subtlety? You won't find it with only three endings availabe.
As it stands, one of the endings is about Destroying. Therefore, the people who pick it must be willing to make sacrifices to Destroy the Reapers forever. Mass Relays, Citadel, Geth, EDI.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...

You want subtlety? You won't find it with only three endings availabe.
As it stands, one of the ends is about Destroying. Therefore, the people who pick it must be willing to make sacrifices to Destroy the Reapers forever.

Did you have to sacrifice anything to destroy Sovereign? Or the Collectors? No. You didn't. This is different only in scale, not in any fundamental way.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Hardly. I see no necessary correlation between destroying the Reapers and rejecting all of their technology and I'm surprised you "keep the CB" people would actually endorse this.

It makes narrative sense because the claim that depending on Reaper technology (like the relays) is limiting in the long run is one of the main philosophical stances presented in the games. Destroy represents both sides of this stance. Cherrypicking shouldn't be allowed here. I'd even go so far and say that it isn't even out of place for the Synthesis, because that option is based on the notion that things go in new, exotic directions. If you read the mid-term speculation part in my out of the dark age thread, you'll see what I mean.

And of course, these scenarios give Miranda an opportunity to shine by using her brilliant mind to overcome some of the limitations imposed by the side-effects of Shepard's action. But that...is fanfic.

[MisterJB]

Sovereign was one Reaper and the Collectors the indocrinated remains of just one more race.

The Reaper Fleet has dictated the course of all life in the galaxy for billions of years. By using the Crucible, Shepard is changing the fundamental laws of the universe forever. Nothing will ever be like it was before.
There must be consequences to such a decision.

And, unlike with Sovereign and the Collectors, you have a choice. You don't need to destroy them.

[hot_heart]

Also, you did 'sacrifice' the council or a lot of human lives when defeating Sovereign.

[CrutchCricket]

Anyway going back to Miranda as seen by history I think she'd be seen more as a villain by the common ignorant folk. Given her association with Cerberus and all the bad stuff they've done, they'll probably generalize on her as well (particularly since any good she does is covert at best). More enlightened scholars would probably pick up on her subtleties and recognize her achievements. But public opinion would likely be blind and prejudiced.

[yesikareyes]

Yannkee wrote...

This thread is about Miranda or about the ending ?

Can we just all go back to talking about our favorite Cerberus Cheerleader? 

Or else I'll be tempted to post a photo of DAT ASS to lighten the mood!