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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#46701
Ieldra

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flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I say that because that's the kind of fix I expect. Both because of budget reasons and because I don't really think they get the problem to begin with.



Hmmm, well, I think somebody like Weekes probably gets it, at least conceptually.

It seems fairly likely that there were disagreements among the developers/writers about some of the things that Miranda is involved with (such as Cerberus, of course, notably), but also maybe Lazarus and the genetic enhancements.

That concept art entitled "Presidium Hospital" is really interesting in that regard, because the intent is obviously to show that Lazarus has led to major medical advancements.

That's a far cry from what we hear at TIM's base.

There are quite a few inconsistencies like that. For example, Miranda's codex entry suggests that she's an example of the amazing things made possible by genetic engineering. But elsewhere there are the anti-science undertones we've discussed previously.

Indeed. I get a confusing picture. Usually if you put something controversial into a story you have other characters remark on it in different ways so that the viewer/player gets the whole picture. But instead, the picture looks like the result of a design war in which the reactionaries won most of the time but a remnant was left of the other side.

BTW I found that the conversation with EDI about transhumanism made it into the game. It's just hard to get because you must speak to EDI again direct after another conversation. You get it after Sur'kesh. Unsurprisingly, in the end EDI assures Shepard that his implants don't make him a transhuman. She does this by using a definition I haven't seen in the literature before. Definitions tend to be vague, but since Shepard *is* enhanced by technology beyond the normal human limits, this assertion appears somewhat arbitrary to me. What Shepard isn't is "posthuman", which would entail things like relative immortality and expanded intellectual and perceptual abilities.

#46702
Ieldra

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Td1984 wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

Or...what if there was the option to take Miri up to the Citadel with you? What do you think would happen?

You'd probably end up together... in the afterlife.

Which might not be such a bad thing. If Shep has to die, why not alongside their LI?

I wouldn't like that. If Shepard must die, at least let Miranda survive. Anything else would be too depressing. Besides, I don't believe in the afterlife, neither does my Shepard and from all we know of her, it seems very unlikely that Miranda does.

Going down together would only be acceptable in a Reapers win scenario.

#46703
Dr. Doctor

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@Ieldra

EDI's sticking with the ME universe's definition of transhuman. IE neural implants such as greyboxes, L3 implants, and biotic amps all qualify an individual as a transhuman while cybernetic replacement limbs and organs do not. The Lazarus Project logs and the conversation with EDI establish that while Shepard has extensive cybernetics his brain wasn't enhanced with similar technology, unless of course Shepard is a biotic.

#46704
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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I feel as if BioWare Underestimated Miri in ME2. They must have thought that no player would like her. It may be why they gave her Cold Lines like, "I believe what Cerberus stands for. Only time will tell if you prove to be an Asset or a Liability to our Cause," or "Average in almost every way really. Completely unremarkable, until the disappearances." Bet they didn't expect Players to Fall For Miri, possibly for new ME Players (Like Me) as well. Well, all I can say is that if this is true, than there is a LARGE Miscalculation on BioWare's Part.:whistle:

There are QUITE POSSIBLY MILLIONS of Mirimancers/Mirimaniacs in the World, including Myself, and the REST of you all.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 15 avril 2012 - 08:30 .


#46705
Ieldra

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Dr. Doctor wrote...
@Ieldra

EDI's sticking with the ME universe's definition of transhuman. IE neural implants such as greyboxes, L3 implants, and biotic amps all qualify an individual as a transhuman while cybernetic replacement limbs and organs do not. The Lazarus Project logs and the conversation with EDI establish that while Shepard has extensive cybernetics his brain wasn't enhanced with similar technology, unless of course Shepard is a biotic.

It is a workable definition, but where was it established? And anyway, in that case EDI should've made a distinction between biotic Shepards and others.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 avril 2012 - 08:33 .


#46706
PsyrenY

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I feel as if BioWare Underestimated Miri in ME2. They must have thought that no player would like her. It may be why they gave her Cold Lines like, "I believe what Cerberus stands for. Only time will tell if you prove to be an Asset or a Liability to our Cause," or "Average in almost every way really. Completely unremarkable, until the disappearances." Bet they didn't expect Players to Fall For Miri, possibly for new ME Players (Like Me) as well. Well, all I can say is that if this is true, than there is a LARGE Miscalculation on BioWare's Part.:whistle:

There are QUITE POSSIBLY MILLIONS of Mirimancers/Mirimaniacs in the World, including Myself, and the REST of you all.


When she said those lines, she WAS cold, so they fit. She warms up to you later, and starts to see you first as a colleague (rather than a tool), then later as a friend (rather than a colleague), then finally as a lover if you go the distance with her. But making her cold in the beginning wasn't a miscalculation at all.

Your figure is most likely off. Millions is way too many - the game itself barely sold millions, much less the percentage of people that played it that consider themselves "mancers" of any kind, then the smaller percentage of those that chose Miranda over Tali/Liara/Ashley etc.

#46707
Dr. Doctor

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Sort of bodged it together over the three games. ME1 established that human biotics are regulated by the Alliance Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies. EDI's definition of a transhuman being an individual who's neurological functions are bolstered by technological means goes along with the concept of biotics being transhumans in ME1.

It could also be that what defines a "baseline human" in 2185 is different than the definition we have in 2012. At Huerta Memorial Hospital a soldier remarks that he's getting a cybernetic replacement for a leg he lost in combat, genetic modification is commonplace so it could be that tech that affects the mind is considered to be the point where a person becomes transhuman. Or it could be that because of the fact that genetic manipulation and cloning technology is widespread in the ME universe, cybernetics are widely ignored.

On a similar note, I wonder if there was any sort of public outcry over Miranda's creation? Considering that she was born near the outset of humanity's rise to the galactic stage introducing a human being deemed to be the pinnacle of humanity who also just so happens to have barely understood telekinetic powers would be a bit frightening.

#46708
hot_heart

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flemm wrote...
That concept art entitled "Presidium Hospital" is really interesting in that regard, because the intent is obviously to show that Lazarus has led to major medical advancements.

I hate to be the one to tell you, flemm, but the artist says different.

mattrhodes.deviantart.com/#/d4s82m3

Yeah I just wanted to put a statue there, and that model had just been
posed by the character artists. It was a choice of convenience, just a
placeholder to say "a statue could go here". If they had actually placed
a statue in the level it could have been of anything at all.


http://comments.devi...0587/2478512730

:(

Modifié par hot_heart, 15 avril 2012 - 09:30 .


#46709
Ares91

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Td1984 wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

Or...what if there was the option to take Miri up to the Citadel with you? What do you think would happen?

You'd probably end up together... in the afterlife.

Which might not be such a bad thing. If Shep has to die, why not alongside their LI?

I wouldn't like that. If Shepard must die, at least let Miranda survive. Anything else would be too depressing. Besides, I don't believe in the afterlife, neither does my Shepard and from all we know of her, it seems very unlikely that Miranda does.

Going down together would only be acceptable in a Reapers win scenario.

I wouldn't mind having them go down together I don't find that depressing at all. But that may be because my Shepard believes in an afterlife.

 I guess I really just don't want to die at the end of the game. I personally think it's rather stupid that your in a no win scenario *unless you use some really  creative thinking* where you have 3 choice but you have to die in all of them. So great I kept my promise to everyone in the damn universe except the women I love.

#46710
jtav

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@MEFan

Those cold lines are absolutely necessary to Miranda's appeal. She's the ice queen who is won over by our hero and subsequently redeemed by him. What I don't think they anticipated was that a chunk of players would like her coldness (that is, being a functional spy--she's warm and generous with loved ones). But if you can make that powerful woman thaw out and acknowledge you as stronger, well that's a pretty heady fantasy for some. Thing is, I wanted an equal and not a trophy.

#46711
hot_heart

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I know a fair few people who play their female Shepard like Miranda. As in, fairly renegade with everyone except their closest allies.

Although, one of them who does this is not particularly fond of Miranda, or Meh-randa as he called her...

#46712
Ares91

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@jtav I agree with you wanting an equal which is one of the reasons I liked Miranda as well.
Talk seems like a love struck kid to me, liara thinks of me as a savior and is "easy", Ashley I thought may be my equal but she's not as good a solider and her feelings/attitude towards others especially aliens needs improvement. Miranda was different.

Hmm think I may use this in my letter...time to copy past lol

#46713
Raizo

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dtrain24 wrote...

flemm wrote...

One thing that really struck me the other day, when I played a mission or two of ME2 was how crit path Miranda (Walters) and non-crit path Miranda (Weekes) really combine so well in that game. It's a big part of what makes the character work.

They don't contradict one another, but they are different. Crit path Miranda is very efficient and sometimes abrasive. Meanwhile, when you go and talk to her on a personal basis, there are all these layers. The personal stuff and the romance, of course, but also the dialogue about Humanity's STG, and the limits of Cerberus experiments, etc.

It contributes to the very strong impression that Shepard is getting to know a person that nobody else really sees most of the time. That feels good.

What happens in ME3 is crit path Miranda is mostly gone, and we get a very simplistic reading of non-crit path Miranda (basically Oriana, with none of the other stuff that Miranda talks about in her main dialogues).


I agree. In ME3, it almost seems as if the old Miranda is slowly turning to ash because of all the stress on top of her.

You can hear it in her voice, she sounds tired, stressed, and upset most of the time. She doesn't have that fire in her tone of voice anymore like she did in Mass Effect 2...I'm not the only guy who picked up on that right?


Those are some very good points guys. I do agree that crit-path Miranda and non crit-path Miranda do mesh very well to create a very layered and complex but likeable character although whether this happens by accident or design is anyone's guess.

I also agree that Miranda in ME3 does seem tired, stressed adn upset most of the time. There definetly seems to be something lacking about ME3's Miranda.

#46714
jtav

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Layers, mostly. I'd dump her if only I could find someone to dump her for. I want an equal, not an accessory. And, unlike Ieldra, I can't pretend Miranda is still under there when I play.

Modifié par jtav, 15 avril 2012 - 12:16 .


#46715
flemm

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hot_heart wrote...
Yeah I just wanted to put a statue there, and that model had just been
posed by the character artists. It was a choice of convenience, just a
placeholder to say "a statue could go here". If they had actually placed
a statue in the level it could have been of anything at all.


Hmmm, well, I think maybe that's just the nature of concept art? Because there's the whole hospital theme and the Lazarus-esque images that don't seem random at all.

jtav wrote...
I want an equal, not an accessory.


Agreed, of course. Though on that specific point, there are some good things about the role in ME3. Miranda is still independant, and she outwits Leng not long after Shepard is defeated by him.

The romance material actually improves on ME2 in this respect (I never really liked some of Shepard's lines in ME2), and Shepard seems almost in awe Miranda's work on Lazarus.

Obviously, I think there are huge problems with the writing and implementation. But not everything is bad.

Modifié par flemm, 15 avril 2012 - 02:26 .


#46716
MisterJB

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
 It may be why they gave her Cold Lines like, "I believe what Cerberus stands for. Only time will tell if you prove to be an Asset or a Liability to our Cause," or "Average in almost every way really. Completely unremarkable, until the disappearances."

No, that's just Miranda being Miranda.
She doesn't trust most people and expects them to prove their worth before she places any on them.
It's one of the things that diferentiates her from other LIs and we must cherish it.

You hear me, Bioware? We cherish it.

Dr. Doctor wrote...
On a similar note, I wonder if there was any sort of public outcry over Miranda's creation? Considering that she was born near the outset of humanity's rise to the galactic stage introducing a human being deemed to be the pinnacle of humanity who also just so happens to have barely understood telekinetic powers would be a bit frightening.

Good question.
I always had the impression; with nothing to support it, I guess; that Henry Lawson did not inform the human population of what he was doing.
It would invite suspicion, like you said, imitation from other scientists and, maybe even a criminal investigation if it was determined Miranda wasn't the first one.
Then there would be rallys of people demanding her be destroyed, people who would want genetic engineering available to all which Henry wouldn't want, etc.

#46717
kookie28

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flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...
Yeah I just wanted to put a statue there, and that model had just been
posed by the character artists. It was a choice of convenience, just a
placeholder to say "a statue could go here". If they had actually placed
a statue in the level it could have been of anything at all.


Hmmm, well, I think maybe that's just the nature of concept art? Because there's the whole hospital theme and the Lazarus-esque images that don't seem random at all.

jtav wrote...
I want an equal, not an accessory.


Agreed, of course. Though on that specific point, there are some good things about the role in ME3. Miranda is still independant, and she outwits Leng not long after Shepard is defeated by him.

The romance material actually improves on ME2 in this respect (I never really liked some of Shepard's lines in ME2), and Shepard seems almost in awe Miranda's work on Lazarus.

Obviously, I think there are huge problems with the writing and implementation. But not everything is bad.

The problem isn't that there's a lot bad things, there's just not enough good. Not enough quantity or quality. Does that make sense?

#46718
Td1984

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hot_heart wrote...

I know a fair few people who play their female Shepard like Miranda. As in, fairly renegade with everyone except their closest allies.

Although, one of them who does this is not particularly fond of Miranda, or Meh-randa as he called her...


That's how I'm playing my Renegon FShep Sarah. She's paragon with Miranda and is going to wind up saving Samara (I just hope that when it comes time to diffuse the Tali/Legion argument that I'm renegade enough to do so on the first try- apparently if you fail, you can't broker peace between the Quarians & Geth in ME3). She's renegade with Garrus because that's the way he thinks, thanks to her in ME1. Haven't spoken to the other squadmates much though.

#46719
hot_heart

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MisterJB wrote...
Good question.
I always had the impression; with nothing to support it, I guess; that Henry Lawson did
not inform the human population of what he was doing.
It would invite suspicion, like you said, imitation from other scientists and, maybe even a criminal investigation if it was determined Miranda wasn't the first one.
Then there would be rallys of people demanding her be destroyed, people who would want genetic engineering available to all which Henry wouldn't want, etc.

That's always confused me. I figured it was that way, but then maybe it's not that controversial?

I mean, he wanted to continue his legacy/dynasty. Was he just going to present a full-grown daughter and say, "Tada! Here's one I made earlier"? People would be more than a little suspicious.

There are just too many questions. :P

Modifié par hot_heart, 15 avril 2012 - 04:15 .


#46720
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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jtav wrote...

@MEFan

Those cold lines are absolutely necessary to Miranda's appeal. She's the ice queen who is won over by our hero and subsequently redeemed by him. What I don't think they anticipated was that a chunk of players would like her coldness (that is, being a functional spy--she's warm and generous with loved ones). But if you can make that powerful woman thaw out and acknowledge you as stronger, well that's a pretty heady fantasy for some. Thing is, I wanted an equal and not a trophy.


Who said I wanted a Trophy? :crying:

In my Play Throughs, we ARE Equals. I too like the advancement of humanity, as much as Miri wanted, along with the admiration of other Alien cultures. I am cold when I need to be as well, that is why I choose Renegade option, but only when it is necessary and NOT just "Plain Cruelty" as Miri once said (Was it Banter in Purgatory in ME2?).

Believe me, I Love Miri's cold side, but I was not always "too" comfortable when starting NG= in ME2 because of the Character Develelopment which I gold used too. I Love Miri's Warmer side too. She is Warm and Loving to the people she cares for, and cold to her Enemies, and possibly others. I Loved her line in Santuary saying, "This is Miranda Lawson. If you managed to get this far, you must be desperate or stupid."

This reminds me a bit of Sarah Walker: She Loved Chuck and she cared for her team, but she was cold and ruthless to the bad guys, like in the Season 4 Episode "Chuck Versus Phase Three." Geez, did the Chuck developers play ME, because there are MANY things the Miri and Sarah have in Common.

I Love Miri's Cold Side, AND I Love Miri's Warm Side, ESPECIALLY in ME3. This does NOT mean I want Miri as a Trophy.

#46721
Dr. Doctor

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MisterJB wrote...

Good question.
I always had the impression; with nothing to support it, I guess; that Henry Lawson did not inform the human population of what he was doing. It would invite suspicion, like you said, imitation from other scientists and, maybe even a criminal investigation if it was determined Miranda wasn't the first one. Then there would be rallys of people demanding her be destroyed, people who would want genetic engineering available to all which Henry wouldn't want, etc.


What interests me is that the codex paints a picture of Miranda as being a shining example of what modern genetic engineering is capable of while Ashley considers her to be less-than-human because of her tailoring (why they didn't have anything between Ash and Miranda is beyond me)



#46722
flemm

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Who said I wanted a Trophy? :crying:

*snip*

I Love Miri's Cold Side, AND I Love Miri's Warm Side, ESPECIALLY in ME3. This does NOT mean I want Miri as a Trophy.



jtav is not saying that that's what you think Image IPB

What she's saying is that fans of the character like both sides, when seemingly we were only supposed to value the Orianna stuff.

That's reading between the lines, as the ME3 material is not quite so one-sided as all that. But it's probably accurate reading-between-the-lines. Or at least the new writer was oblivious as to the need for both sides to be in equal evidence.

Modifié par flemm, 15 avril 2012 - 05:23 .


#46723
jtav

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Quick, very strange question: is the model for the tracer device (rectangular thing with a screen) used anywhere else? Because Miranda has it on her in the apartment and tells Shep she always has a plan.

#46724
Ares91

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

jtav wrote...

@MEFan

Those cold lines are absolutely necessary to Miranda's appeal. She's the ice queen who is won over by our hero and subsequently redeemed by him. What I don't think they anticipated was that a chunk of players would like her coldness (that is, being a functional spy--she's warm and generous with loved ones). But if you can make that powerful woman thaw out and acknowledge you as stronger, well that's a pretty heady fantasy for some. Thing is, I wanted an equal and not a trophy.


Who said I wanted a Trophy? :crying:

In my Play Throughs, we ARE Equals. I too like the advancement of humanity, as much as Miri wanted, along with the admiration of other Alien cultures. I am cold when I need to be as well, that is why I choose Renegade option, but only when it is necessary and NOT just "Plain Cruelty" as Miri once said (Was it Banter in Purgatory in ME2?).

Believe me, I Love Miri's cold side, but I was not always "too" comfortable when starting NG= in ME2 because of the Character Develelopment which I gold used too. I Love Miri's Warmer side too. She is Warm and Loving to the people she cares for, and cold to her Enemies, and possibly others. I Loved her line in Santuary saying, "This is Miranda Lawson. If you managed to get this far, you must be desperate or stupid."

This reminds me a bit of Sarah Walker: She Loved Chuck and she cared for her team, but she was cold and ruthless to the bad guys, like in the Season 4 Episode "Chuck Versus Phase Three." Geez, did the Chuck developers play ME, because there are MANY things the Miri and Sarah have in Common.

I Love Miri's Cold Side, AND I Love Miri's Warm Side, ESPECIALLY in ME3. This does NOT mean I want Miri as a Trophy.

 Damn you stole my argument lol. I wad gonna bring up that exact example and that same episode of chuck to back you up but went and did it yourself lol.

#46725
Vertigo_1

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jtav wrote...

Quick, very strange question: is the model for the tracer device (rectangular thing with a screen) used anywhere else? Because Miranda has it on her in the apartment and tells Shep she always has a plan.


I noticed that before and yes it's the same model