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[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...

E71 wrote...

jtav wrote...
It's always the squadmate whose icon is on the right.

I don't suppose anyone knows if it's possible to influence which squad member is on which side...?

Out of the 30 times or so I've finished that last part with the same two team members, I've only ever saved Miranda once...

Frustrates me a little.

It's random. Just reload the last autosave until you get things right. You'll have to repeat the fight, though.

I'm extremely lucky. Every time I have Miranda in team  during the final mission Shepard went to save her.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm planning on play a final main playtrhough with every dlc. In your opinion, where should I place LOTSB and Overlord (Arrival I'm already sure after the CB mission)? Thanks to everyone in advance.

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Widmo34 wrote...
Miranda WAS a Cerberus loyalist to the bones but only on the begining... At the end she had told tim to **** of and she resigned

No she hasn't. Not in my games and not in many others. MIranda's resignation at the end of the SM only happens if you take her with you to the final boss and destroy the Collector base. I don't know why this thrice damned part is always perceived as canonical. Are people that desperate to get her away from Cerberus so that they can properly hate the organization after Miranda is gone?

(Grr....I'm starting to get more pro-Cerberus the more hate is piled up on them)

I think she'll be with Shepard in the end if you play it right and I don't think she'll go against Shepard for Cerberus in ME3, but apart from that her affiliation is not fixed. She still believes in the advancement and protection of humanity as in Cerberus' original agenda. Once she doesn't believe any more that they represent that agenda better than anyone else she might turn against them, but who's there as an alternative? If you don't force her to resign at the end of ME2 by placing her in an irreconcilable loyalty conflict - that's what happens if you destroy the base - I can see her staying with Cerberus for a while. She might even try to use their resources to get Shepard out. Not that I think anything like that will be featured in ME3...too bad, really. 

I really hope they don't turn her into some typical Tsundere that ends up "seeing the light" and is redeemed through fighting against the "big bad" organization she worked for.

[Vertigo_1]

I'm thinking for ME3 they make it so she resigns either way.
OR she stays in Cerberus either way due to blackmail (Oriana)

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

OR she stays in Cerberus either way due to blackmail (Oriana)

I fear this. And what might happen.

[ViSeiRa]

Seboist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Widmo34 wrote...
Miranda WAS a Cerberus loyalist to the bones but only on the begining... At the end she had told tim to **** of and she resigned

No she hasn't. Not in my games and not in many others. MIranda's resignation at the end of the SM only happens if you take her with you to the final boss and destroy the Collector base. I don't know why this thrice damned part is always perceived as canonical. Are people that desperate to get her away from Cerberus so that they can properly hate the organization after Miranda is gone?

(Grr....I'm starting to get more pro-Cerberus the more hate is piled up on them)

I think she'll be with Shepard in the end if you play it right and I don't think she'll go against Shepard for Cerberus in ME3, but apart from that her affiliation is not fixed. She still believes in the advancement and protection of humanity as in Cerberus' original agenda. Once she doesn't believe any more that they represent that agenda better than anyone else she might turn against them, but who's there as an alternative? If you don't force her to resign at the end of ME2 by placing her in an irreconcilable loyalty conflict - that's what happens if you destroy the base - I can see her staying with Cerberus for a while. She might even try to use their resources to get Shepard out. Not that I think anything like that will be featured in ME3...too bad, really. 

I really hope they don't turn her into some typical Tsundere that ends up "seeing the light" and is redeemed through fighting against the "big bad" organization she worked for.

I don't think Miranda fits the Tsundere stereotype at all, maybe someone like Morrigan from Origins but not Miranda, and the debate here is not whether she'll fight against Cerberus or not, because she'll -probably- always do, the problem is the timing and the way of her resignation which I think is more akin to pre-mature character development, this moment should've happened off-screen in the time between ME2 and ME3 or during the events of ME3.

That actually could've been a brilliant introduction scene for Miranda in ME3, we're fighting Cerberus operatives and see Miranda joining in the battle, Shepard knows she's Cerberus so he either hesitates (if he romanced her) or he tells his squadmates to focus on her since she's a big threat only to find her fighting Cerberus's troops instead... and it can go on from there, they ruined such an important aspect of her character development when they rushed it.

Modifié par ViSeirA, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:30 .

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Widmo34 wrote...
Miranda WAS a Cerberus loyalist to the bones but only on the begining... At the end she had told tim to **** of and she resigned

No she hasn't. Not in my games and not in many others. MIranda's resignation at the end of the SM only happens if you take her with you to the final boss and destroy the Collector base. I don't know why this thrice damned part is always perceived as canonical. Are people that desperate to get her away from Cerberus so that they can properly hate the organization after Miranda is gone?

(Grr....I'm starting to get more pro-Cerberus the more hate is piled up on them)

I think she'll be with Shepard in the end if you play it right and I don't think she'll go against Shepard for Cerberus in ME3, but apart from that her affiliation is not fixed. She still believes in the advancement and protection of humanity as in Cerberus' original agenda. Once she doesn't believe any more that they represent that agenda better than anyone else she might turn against them, but who's there as an alternative? If you don't force her to resign at the end of ME2 by placing her in an irreconcilable loyalty conflict - that's what happens if you destroy the base - I can see her staying with Cerberus for a while. She might even try to use their resources to get Shepard out. Not that I think anything like that will be featured in ME3...too bad, really. 

I really hope they don't turn her into some typical Tsundere that ends up "seeing the light" and is redeemed through fighting against the "big bad" organization she worked for.

If that happens, I don't want her in my games. It takes a lot to make me say that, but this would do it. That's not the Miranda I came to love, and having to witness such a development would make me...well....cry and rage at the same time.

I think Bioware is aware of the danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[jtav]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I'm thinking for ME3 they make it so she resigns either way.
OR she stays in Cerberus either way due to blackmail (Oriana)

I agree, and I'm betting on blackmail. They've foreshadowed it.

" Miranda Lawson is too valuable to Cerberus, and Oriana's well-being is easiest means of procuring loyalty."

"There are people who'd use her against me. I'm very protective when it comes to Oriana."

Yes, she should be theoretically capable of hiding her, but Grayson couldn't hide either.

[jtav]

@Ieldra, seconded. That Miranda disgusts me.

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

@Ieldra, seconded. That Miranda disgusts me.

Well, though for me it's not disgust, I have to say that I don't like that type of Miranda. She believes in what Cerberus represents. That's why I really like the idea of her becoming The Illusive Woman.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:38 .

[ViSeiRa]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If that happens, I don't want her in my games. It takes a lot to make me say that, but this would do it. That's not the Miranda I came to love, and having to witness such a development would make me...well....cry and rage at the same time.

I think Bioware is aware of the danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

Why would it be unrecognizable if she leaves Cerberus in ME3 and fights them? it's logical thinking, the whole galaxy is fighting the reapers, Miranda is intelligent enough to know working with them in any capacity and under any circumstances won't benefit humanity, I'd say that's a very plausible and coherent development path for her character, if Cerberus isn't really working with the reapers and they're still committed to fighting them then it'd be OOC, otherwise it's not.

[The Elder King]

ViSeirA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If that happens, I don't want her in my games. It takes a lot to make me say that, but this would do it. That's not the Miranda I came to love, and having to witness such a development would make me...well....cry and rage at the same time.

I think Bioware is aware of the danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

Why would it be unrecognizable if she leaves Cerberus in ME3 and fights them? it's logical thinking, the whole galaxy is fighting the reapers, Miranda is intelligent enough to know working with them in any capacity and under any circumstances won't benefit humanity, I'd say that's a very plausible and coherent development path for her character, if Cerberus isn't really working with the reapers and they're still committed to fighting them then it'd be OOC, otherwise it's not.

I think Ieldra was talking about the theory that Miranda realized that Cerberus is a evil organization even before ME3.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I'm thinking for ME3 they make it so she resigns either way.
OR she stays in Cerberus either way due to blackmail (Oriana)

I agree, and I'm betting on blackmail. They've foreshadowed it.

" Miranda Lawson is too valuable to Cerberus, and Oriana's well-being is easiest means of procuring loyalty."

"There are people who'd use her against me. I'm very protective when it comes to Oriana."

Yes, she should be theoretically capable of hiding her, but Grayson couldn't hide either.

I think Miranda would be better at it now that Cerberus was raided (Deception?) plus I wouldn't put Grayson in the same boat as Miranda.  She is basically TIM's right hand woman (or if you want a high level operative).  She has her own contancts, shes smart and knows more about Cerberus than Grayson does (at least this is what I think),

I'm not saying she could hide Oriana indefinately but it would take longer for them to find her than it did for Grayson.

[ViSeiRa]

hhh89 wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If that happens, I don't want her in my games. It takes a lot to make me say that, but this would do it. That's not the Miranda I came to love, and having to witness such a development would make me...well....cry and rage at the same time.

I think Bioware is aware of the danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

Why would it be unrecognizable if she leaves Cerberus in ME3 and fights them? it's logical thinking, the whole galaxy is fighting the reapers, Miranda is intelligent enough to know working with them in any capacity and under any circumstances won't benefit humanity, I'd say that's a very plausible and coherent development path for her character, if Cerberus isn't really working with the reapers and they're still committed to fighting them then it'd be OOC, otherwise it's not.

I think Ieldra was talking about the theory that Miranda realized that Cerberus is a evil organization even before ME3.

Well, if so then I guess we're in agreement, the whole conversation lacks context though <_<

[Ieldra]

ViSeirA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If that happens, I don't want her in my games. It takes a lot to make me say that, but this would do it. That's not the Miranda I came to love, and having to witness such a development would make me...well....cry and rage at the same time.

I think Bioware is aware of the danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

Why would it be unrecognizable if she leaves Cerberus in ME3 and fights them? it's logical thinking, the whole galaxy is fighting the reapers, Miranda is intelligent enough to know working with them in any capacity and under any circumstances won't benefit humanity, I'd say that's a very plausible and coherent development path for her character, if Cerberus isn't really working with the reapers and they're still committed to fighting them then it'd be OOC, otherwise it's not.

The problem is motivation. If she fights Cerberus because they're working for the Reapers, that's perfectly acceptable - because they then won't represent the cause she believes in any more - the advancement and protection of humanity. If she fights Cerberus because she's turned from the pragmatic to the moralistic and cannot accept them any more, i.e. if she "sees the light", then that's character assassination as far as I'm concerned. That's the scenario I will be unable to accept. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:57 .

[The Elder King]

[quote]ViSeirA wrote...

[quote]hhh89 wrote...

[/quote]

I think Ieldra was talking about the theory that Miranda realized that Cerberus is a evil organization even before ME3.

[/quote]

Well, if so then I guess we're in agreement, the whole conversation lacks context though <_<
[/quote]

I think she was referring to the whole "seeing the light" part, though I agree that the post isn't completely clear.


[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...



I think Bioware is aware of the
danger of changing a character into something unrecognizeable. The only
question is how far they'll go in their Paragon favoritism.

[/quote]

Trust me, I'm a Paragon and I really don't want to see her saying that Cerberus is evil. I want her to fight against Cerberus because they're allied with the Reapers (a choice that I don't like a lot, even if I don't like Cerberus), not because she realized that Cerberus is evil. Though I want that in the "TIW" scenario, she's willing to stop the most atrocious experiments (whose she more or less condamned. She seemed to agree with Cerberus stopping the Rachni experiments after they discovered that they're sentient beings. And she didn't like using the Reaper technology of the CB).

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[MisterJB]

I would like some context, please. What exactly is "Miranda realizing that Cerberus is evil"?
I'm serious, BTW.

[E71]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

[quote]
It's random...
[/quote]

Then I guess I'm just reeallly unlucky. lol

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

I would like some context, please. What exactly is "Miranda realizing that Cerberus is evil"?
I'm serious, BTW.

Maybe I used the wrong word. I mean that I don't like if Miranda realized that Cerberus (prior ME3) wasn't an organization that worked for the protection and progress of humanity. Because even if I don't like Cerberus and how they work, they always want to protect humanity (TIM founded Cerberus for the very purpose of protect humanity from the Reapers). It's more or less the same reason why I don't want that in ME3 we find that Cerberus worked for the Reapers since ME or ME2, like someone suggested in some thread in the General Discussion forum.

[Ieldra]

hhh89 wrote...
Trust me, I'm a Paragon and I really don't want to see her saying that Cerberus is evil. I want her to fight against Cerberus because they're allied with the Reapers (a choice that I don't like a lot, even if I don't like Cerberus), not because she realized that Cerberus is evil. Though I want that in the "TIW" scenario, she's willing to stop the most atrocious experiments (whose she more or less condamned. She seemed to agree with Cerberus stopping the Rachni experiments after they discovered that they're sentient beings. And she didn't like using the Reaper technology of the CB).

I agree that she'd stop the more atrocious experiments. But regarding the CB, I really don't see what's so bad about keeping it. I am with Legion here - " this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."  and I'm very convinced that Miranda would recommend to keep it against every aversion she might feel, considering that a war for the very survival of the organic species of the galaxy is coming.

Ah well, everyone knows how I think about that. Miranda's line at the base is the single most OOC line Bioware gave her and I'm glad it's avoidable.

[AresXX7]

Would anyone object to Miranda leaving Cerberus because they/TIM tried to use Oriana as a means to keep her in the organization? Rather than 'seeing the light' or indoctrination.

What I mean is; if she were told, or found evidence, that her sister's safety depended on her loyalty, and she decided to secure Oriana elsewhere then leave them for crossing that line.

That way, you don't have another 'rescue Miranda's sister' plotline, because she took care of it herself, but you are given reason for her departure. (the part of her relocating Oriana could be used as to why she isn't present during the trial)

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
I would like some context, please. What exactly is "Miranda realizing that Cerberus is evil"?
I'm serious, BTW.

It's more about what happens with Miranda. If they make it appear as if any growing dissatisfaction with Cerberus of her is grounded in her moving from the pragmatic to the moralistic, in some kind of "character reform" or "seeing the light" scenario, then that will destroy her for me. Miranda is - as in jtav's famous expression - the "morally ambiguous superspy". If she moves significantly away from that, she won't be the Miranda I love anymore.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Trust me, I'm a Paragon and I really don't want to see her saying that Cerberus is evil. I want her to fight against Cerberus because they're allied with the Reapers (a choice that I don't like a lot, even if I don't like Cerberus), not because she realized that Cerberus is evil. Though I want that in the "TIW" scenario, she's willing to stop the most atrocious experiments (whose she more or less condamned. She seemed to agree with Cerberus stopping the Rachni experiments after they discovered that they're sentient beings. And she didn't like using the Reaper technology of the CB).

I agree that she'd stop the more atrocious experiments. But regarding the CB, I really don't see what's so bad about keeping it. I am with Legion here - " this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."  and I'm very convinced that Miranda would recommend to keep it against every aversion she might feel, considering that a war for the very survival of the organic species of the galaxy is coming.

Ah well, everyone knows how I think about that. Miranda's line at the base is the single most OOC line Bioware gave her and I'm glad it's avoidable.

I'm not saying that keeping the CB is good or bad, or that is comparable to the experiments Cerberus did in the past. I wanted to say that she seemed against its use.
About Legion, is more or less what Mordin said, but both of them changed their position on the Normandy. I don't know what are they opinions about the CB.

[MisterJB]

AresXX7 wrote...

Would anyone object to Miranda leaving Cerberus because they/TIM tried to use Oriana as a means to keep her in the organization? Rather than 'seeing the light' or indoctrination.

What I mean is; if she were told, or found evidence, that her sister's safety depended on her loyalty, and she decided to secure Oriana elsewhere then leave them for crossing that line.

Miranda may have faith in TIM but she is not an idiot. She knows Oriana's safety depends on the work she does for Cerberus.

[jtav]

Heh, that's my everlasting contribution to this thread, isn't it?

Would anyone mind if I posted a snippet from a project I'm working on? I ask because Shepard and Miranda are not on good terms, and the romance is specifically discounted.

[Ieldra]

AresXX7 wrote...
Would anyone object to Miranda leaving Cerberus because they/TIM tried to use Oriana as a means to keep her in the organization? Rather than 'seeing the light' or indoctrination.

What I mean is; if she were told, or found evidence, that her sister's safety depended on her loyalty, and she decided to secure Oriana elsewhere then leave them for crossing that line.

That way, you don't have another 'rescue Miranda's sister' plotline, because she took care of it herself, but you are given reason for her departure. (the part of her relocating Oriana could be used as to why she isn't present during the trial)

I would support that if she had evidence that Cerberus plans to blackmail her if her loyalty is in question after being with Shepard. Loyalty goes both ways. If the organization you have been loyal to betrays you like this, They have lost any right to your loyalty. What she'd do about it is another question - they might be a benefit to staying for a while - but Cerberus would lose her, even if they wouldn't know it yet.

It's one thing to know such things might happen, and another to realize that it's planned.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .