82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ares91]

oh wow ok thanks for the pics guys.
So I've got another question. What i want to do is take that original pic of Miranda (the one mr massakka posted) and and want to get it where its just Miranda standing there with a black background. Problem is i dont know how to do that. Anyone here know how?

[Lawrence0294]

flemm wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

Mordin/Miranda romance. I wonder if it has been done.

There are screenshots. Really, really hot screenshots

I'm not sure if i want to see it or not :o:unsure:

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...


I don't know if I'm more suprised by this or by my lack of surprise at it.

Just a bit of a joke actually

But they are my favorite characters by a wide margin. (Screenshots do exist, because you can mod Mordin's model in place of Shepard's.)

Anyway, I agree, I have always seen them as being friends, and getting along well/having a lot to talk about, etc.

They have the same writer in ME2, of course (off the crit path in Miranda's case), and I think that Miranda's cerebral side is largely due to that. She actually references Mordin specifically, and the Salarian STG. On his side, Mordin seems 100% down with working with Cerberus.

I'd love to have an off the record chat with Weekes about what the flying @*&%# happened with Miranda.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 12:04 .

[jtav]

I think someone very badly wanted her to fit the trope of the evil woman who really only wanted to be loved.

[kookie28]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...


I don't know if I'm more suprised by this or by my lack of surprise at it.

Just a bit of a joke actually

But they are my favorite characters by a wide margin. (Screenshots do exist, because you can mod Mordin's model in place of Shepard's.)

Anyway, I agree, I have always seen them as being friends, and getting along well/having a lot to talk about, etc.

They have the same writer in ME2, of course (off the crit path in Miranda's case), and I think that Miranda's cerebral side is largely due to that. She actually references Mordin specifically, and the Salarian STG. On his side, Mordin seems 100% down with working with Cerberus.

I'd love to have an off the record chat with Weekes about what the flying @*&%# happened with Miranda.

And then you would relay that information to us, of course. 

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

I think someone very badly wanted her to fit the trope of the evil woman who really only wanted to be loved.

If that were true she'd come on stronger and likely do so regardless of LI status (kind of how some people claim Liara is doing).
What we have is simply a product of neglect.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
If that were true she'd come on stronger and likely do so regardless of LI status (kind of how some people claim Liara is doing).

jtav isn't referring to ME2 Miranda. But rather the retcon/re-interpretation of the character between ME2 and ME3 (and there definitely was one).

What we have in ME3, if you look below the surface a bit, is essentially part two of the cliché jtav references, with the problem being that, to get there, you need to ignore most of what makes Miranda Miranda.

As you say, in ME2, Miranda doesn't fit the cliché (which is what makes her Miranda). None of us would be here if Miranda could be reduced to that (and she can't, of course).

jtav wrote...

I think someone very badly wanted her to fit the trope of the evil woman who really only wanted to be loved.

You're right. But the part I want to know about isn't that, really, because, as you say, it can be surmised without much difficulty.

The part I want to know about is how the writing team could have convinced themselves it was a good idea to adopt such a simple-minded vision of the character, to the point of retconning her motivations in ME2 and ignoring entire chunks of dialogue.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 12:18 .

[jtav]

Because that's what Casey saw when he looked at her I think. And ME3 has problems with a certain kind of female character. I think they think their target audience won't like a woman who is abrasive and a bit ruthless.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

jtav isn't referring to ME2 Miranda. But rather the retcon/re-interpretation of the character between ME2 and ME3 (and there definitely was one).

What we have in ME3, if you look below the surface a bit, is essentially part two of the cliché jtav references, with the problem being that, to get there, you need to ignore most of what makes Miranda Miranda

Seriously? There were parts missing, large, important parts sure. But glaring omission is what it was. Suggesting an active change is taking things too far.
Also, I was talking about ME3 and no it still wouldn't fit for the reasons I already posted. Nothing in Miranda's actions in ME3 scream "love me!"

The part I want to know about is how the writing team could have convinced themselves it was a good idea to adopt such a simple-minded vision of the character, to the point of retconning her motivations in ME2 and ignoring entire chunks of dialogue.

How can you say there was a retcon? Haven't we been calling it Loyalty Mission 2.0? That's not a retcon that's a rehash, a redo, whatever. You can't make something from nothing and what we have, besides the Oriana plot redone... is nothing.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 29 avril 2012 - 12:24 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Because that's what Casey saw when he looked at her I think.

Yeah, probably. That's certainly the vibe I get from some of his comments. Man, was that ever a mistake.

*shakes head*

Of course, there was obviously some effort made to recover from that when the role was fleshed out. But not enough by a longshot.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 12:25 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

How can you say there was a retcon? Haven't we been calling it Loyalty Mission 2.0? That's not a retcon that's a rehash, a redo, whatever. You can't make something from nothing and what we have, besides the Oriana plot redone... is nothing.

We've had this conversation before. If you prefer to believe that the role is weak because of the combination of: (1) neglect, (2) repetitiveness and (3) hugely important missing parts, that's fine.

It's all true, of course. And, of course, if certain keys things were added, there would be no problem, theoretically, because the additional content could, theoretically, resolve the issues with what we have currently.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[Ares91]

Can we just have Casey work on Liara and leave the rest of the characters alone?

[flemm]

kookie28 wrote...
And then you would relay that information to us, of course. 

LoL

Well, given what a news item that post about the endings became, I don't really see myself having that conversation anytime soon, unfortunately.

[CrutchCricket]

Indeed. I just find all these negative speculations about writer intent (like they planned to RUIN FOREVER) as irksome as conspiracy theories and about as convincing. Really I think neglect cuts deeper and some people would rather find intent (negative or not) even when there is none because it's somehow more "meaningful". So in this case, better the assumption that someone "dumbed down" Miranda or even tried to ruin her than acceptance of the idea that maybe, no one gave a **** about her.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Indeed. I just find all these negative speculations about writer intent (like they planned to RUIN FOREVER) as irksome as conspiracy theories and about as convincing. Really I think neglect cuts deeper and some people would rather find intent (negative or not) even when there is none because it's somehow more "meaningful". So in this case, better the assumption that someone "dumbed down" Miranda or even tried to ruin her than acceptance of the idea that maybe, no one gave a **** about her.

There is no need to speak in such exaggerated terms. They didn't set out to screw up Miranda's role anymore than they did the endings. But each was a result of choices, though misguided ones.

A change in direction doesn't happen by accident. None of the writers would even bother to argue that. And I'm sure Jay W. worked his little heart out trying to make it good.

It's not a "conspiracy theory" to suggest that what we have is the result of specific creative choices being made by a group of writers. What we have *is* the result of such choices.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 12:46 .

[jtav]

No, it's because of various sexist cliches that ME3 Miranda fell into. Ashley also has problems. They went with the first trope that came to mind, regardless of whether it fit the character.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
It's not a "conspiracy theory" to suggest that what we have is the result of specific creative choices being made by a group of writers. What we have *is* the result of such choices.

I was comparing it to conspiracy theories not saying it was one. What we have is the result of choices but I deny they were any more "creative" than my decision to not write about, say Jacob in the fic I will eventually submit to the fanbook (that's still coming by the way).

jtav wrote...
No, it's because of various sexist cliches that ME3 Miranda fell into. Ashley also has problems. They went with the first trope that came to mind, regardless of whether it fit the character.

She would fall into those same cliches in ME2 if you took out the Cerberus plot and the idealism which, oops is just what happened in ME3. There was no rewrite, only things they forgot to write (or didn't bother to).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 29 avril 2012 - 12:52 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I was comparing it to conspiracy theories not saying it was one. What we have is the result of choices but I deny they were any more "creative" than my decision to not write about, say Jacob in the fic I will eventually submit to the fanbook (that's still coming by the way).

But... there is Miranda material in the game, quite a bit of it, actually. And... it does have a direction. So, the analogy doesn't seem very apt.

CrutchCricket wrote...
She would fall into those same cliches in ME2 if you took out the Cerberus plot and the idealism which, oops is just what happened in ME3. There was no rewrite, only things they forgot to write (or didn't bother to).

Well, no, she wouldn't. For Miranda to fall into clíchés in ME2, you'd have to erase the whole role, pretty much, and just show a picture of her  (And even then, I'm not sure.)

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[Stalker]

Ares91 wrote...

oh wow ok thanks for the pics guys.
So I've got another question. What i want to do is take that original pic of Miranda (the one mr massakka posted) and and want to get it where its just Miranda standing there with a black background. Problem is i dont know how to do that. Anyone here know how?

Here

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

But... there is Miranda material in the game, quite a bit of it, actually. And... it does have a direction. So, the analogy doesn't seem very apt.

What direction? It's a redo of the loyalty mission, set against a plot important backdrop so you don't feel she's operating completely in a vacuum. There's that and "being there" for the romance.

Well, no, she wouldn't. For Miranda to fall into clíchés in ME2, you'd have to erase the whole role, pretty much, and just show a picture of her  (And even them, I'm not sure.)

Exactly! I was just thinking of the picture analogy myself. That's exactly what happened. ME2, we see this woman in action and it is awesome. ME3, we're given a picture of her, not from her best angle and we are rightly displeased. But that's not to say they just up and "reinvented" her.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
What direction? It's a redo of the loyalty mission, set against a plot important backdrop so you don't feel she's operating completely in a vacuum. There's that and "being there" for the romance.

At the end of the day, it's not important if the more...    *ahem*    ...questionable aspects of what we have are the result of a conscious change in direction, or simply an accident due to the combination of, as you say, a relatively limited role and important oversights.

I think it's probably a combination of the two, but it doesn't really matter. That's especially true since one of the problems is that certain tropes and clichés dominate, because that could easily happen if you have an inexperienced writer who is in a bit of rush.

[CrutchCricket]

True, the particulars don't matter as much. At the end of the day we still have to fill in the missing bits in our heads.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

True, the particulars don't matter as much. At the end of the day we still have to fill in the missing bits in our heads.

Well, it's partly that it shifts the discussion too much toward the question of intention (which we can only speculate about), and away from the question of what's in the game (which we can be sure of).

That's partly why it's useful to talk about story tropes, though, especially common ones, because their existence in the story doesn't depend on writer intent. One of the characteristics of bad writing, and amateurish writing, is that it is constantly falling into/being dominated by clichés without consciously trying to be.

It's relatively hard to write stories that aren't dominated by clichés because you *have* to tell certain types of stories involving certain types of characters, there's no way around it.

One of the big differences between Miranda in ME2 and Miranda in ME3 is that, in ME2, there are certain basic archetypes in play (femme fatale and ice queen, notably, but potentially some others as well), however they don't dominate. *Miranda* is in the foreground.

In ME3, Miranda is in the background, being dragged around by the clichés, which are in the foreground. One can identify that this is the case without speculating as to the intent.

Jay W. may have sincerely believed he was telling the most shockingly original story in the universe, or he may have written it all on a napkin after looking up "femme fatale" on tvtropes for reference. Doesn't matter what he thought he was doing.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[jtav]

And the irony is ME2 Miranda could have been used to make some of their themes more palatable. She's made of organic parts but artificially constructed by a designer. She had ambitions for humanity. And she bloody conquered death. She could have been the symbol for improvement/Synthesis without losing humanity.

Not to mention the fun factor of a Cerberus officer working with the Alliance.

[Ares91]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Ares91 wrote...
I want to get it where its just Miranda standing there with a black background. Problem is i dont know how to do that. Anyone here know how?

Here

I love you.    lol Seriously though thanks man I really appreciate it.