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[Dr. Doctor]

The new guy did a pretty good job, I think the majority of the problem stems from the critical path. Somewhere along the line they looked at everything they introduced in ME2 and went "Oh crap. How are we going to deal with all of this?"

The end result is some characters get development (Mordin, Legion, Garrus, Tali) while others (Miranda, Jack, Thane, Jacob, Ash, and Kaiden) have the higher-ups praying that no one notices where they cut corners.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...
She could have been the symbol for improvement/Synthesis without losing humanity.

True, Miranda's origin would've been one of the right ways they could've implemented the synthesis ideas.
Though I would personally keep the actual origin a mystery. If there is a "designer" we don't know who or what. Techno-organics just appear one day. How does everyone deal with it?

But yeah. Ball wasn't just dropped it was ran over by a truck.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 29 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...
She could have been the symbol for improvement/Synthesis without losing humanity.

True, Miranda's origin would've been one of the right ways they could've implemented the synthesis ideas.

It's true. I wonder sometimes about the "future of humanity" line from LotSB. Granted, Jacob's "drinks and dancing" line is also ignored in ME3, but, given that the Citadel is the main hub, it's plausible that they were originally going to have a "date" with Jacob there, much like with Jack. Also, Miranda's line is much less generic.

The lines for Jack and Thane pretty much fit. So I wonder if there was an idea along the lines you guys are describing at some point.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[Ares91]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...
She could have been the symbol for improvement/Synthesis without losing humanity.

True, Miranda's origin would've been one of the right ways they could've implemented the synthesis ideas.
Though I would personally keep the actual origin a mystery. If there is a "designer" we don't know who or what. Techno-organics just appear one day. How does everyone deal with it?

But yeah. Ball wasn't just dropped it was ran over by a truck.

www.youtube.com/watch

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The new guy did a pretty good job, I think the majority of the problem stems from the critical path.

Well, I don't mean to get on his case. It's unlikely that he chose the direction anyway. If anything, he (with apparently some help from Weekes) probably tried to make it as palatable as he could (albeit some of that apparently at the last minute).

I was making a more general point about how it doesn't really matter too much what the "intent" was.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[jtav]

If anything, I think the original intent for Miranda was worse since the earliest draft had her as a prisoner/Reaper chow.

[Dr. Doctor]

I think losing Drew Karpyshyn from the writing team really dealt a blow to the main ME3 story. Walters' narratives usually start out strong, but then towards the end it becomes less of a story and more of a checklist for plot threads that need to be resolved. That, and I prefer Drew's original idea for the endings.

[Stalker]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I think losing Drew Karpyshyn from the writing team really dealt a blow to the main ME3 story. Walters' narratives usually start out strong, but then towards the end it becomes less of a story and more of a checklist for plot threads that need to be resolved. That, and I prefer Drew's original idea for the endings.

It's sad to see Mass Effect suffering from constantly changing writers and the exclusion of Drew.

ME1 told a great story with solid sci-fi.
- Drew alone is the head-writer.

ME2 coudn't tell the best story with being the 2 in the trilogy, but it was still an improvement in many parts (especially characters). However, the "solid sci-fi" began to crack
- Drew together with Walters.

Now ME3 is mediocre writing at best. Walters decided to retcon the whole reasoning for the Reapers and worked off the finale of all plots like a check-list.
- Walters and some random dude.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 29 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

If anything, I think the original intent for Miranda was worse since the earliest draft had her as a prisoner/Reaper chow.

Yep. There are some major shortcomings of the dialogue that, I think, unfortunately, must be attributed to the new writer. But the overall direction, almost undoubtedly not.

When I replay ME2, one of the things I'm struck by is how much of Miranda's dialogue is cerebral/analytical. Even the banter is mostly that way. This is important precisely because it's the opposite of what you'd expect.

It should have been possible to preserve some of that side of the character over the course of 5 conversations in ME3. Part of the reason for this may have been a struggle to make the romance at least semi-satisfying, I guess, thus a lot of the dialogue is written with the romance in mind.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[o Ventus]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I think losing Drew Karpyshyn from the writing team really dealt a blow to the main ME3 story. Walters' narratives usually start out strong, but then towards the end it becomes less of a story and more of a checklist for plot threads that need to be resolved. That, and I prefer Drew's original idea for the endings.

It's sad to see Mass Effect suffering from constantly changing writers and the exclusion of Drew.

ME1 told a great story with solid sci-fi.
- Drew alone is the head-writer.

ME2 coudn't tell the best story with being the 2 in the trilogy, but it was still an improvement in many parts (especially characters). However, the "solid sci-fi" began to crack
- Drew together with Walters.

Now ME3 is mediocre writing at best. Walters decided to retcon the whole reasoning for the Reapers and worked off the finale of all plots like a check-list.
- Walters and some random dude.

Come on now, to be fair, Walters only half-retcon'd the Reapers' apparent purpose. They didn't abolish the reproduction concept, they sidelined it.

Modifié par o Ventus, 29 avril 2012 - 02:41 .

[o Ventus]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The end result is some characters get development (Mordin, Legion, Garrus, Tali) while others (Miranda, Jack, Thane, Jacob, Ash, and Kaiden) have the higher-ups praying that no one notices where they cut corners.

Coincidentally (Maybe not so, now that I think about it), the 4 most popular characters from ME2 were the ones that received the highest amount of polish for their comebacks.

[o Ventus]

Skullheart wrote...

So, the worst of Miranda will be:

- No dialogue abour her past with Cerberus, or her thoughts about their new direction.
- No real confrontation with her father. Two words aren't enough for tormenting her for 16(?) years.
- No real contribution in her alive scenario.
- No precense on Cronos station. The most logical character to be on TIM base isn't there with you, just as kratos said, is like not having tali on rannoch arc.

About the romance:
- The lack of affection. Not even a visual kiss were both of them make out alive.
- No real love scene, neither a pillow talk.
- Shepard wakes up alone after the last nightmare with the boy, not having his lover at his side.
- The flashback fiasco.
- Shepard can't keep his promise.

That... Actually sums it up quite nicely.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

Coincidentally (Maybe not so, now that I think about it), the 4 most popular characters from ME2 were the ones that received the highest amount of polish for their comebacks.

Well, I'm not sure I would really break it down the way Dr. Doctor did there. Example: Jack has less screentime than many other characters, but was visually revamped, was written by Weekes and has substantial character development in a short appearance.

Garrus and Tali are squad members, of course, and so have a lot of banter and new uniforms, etc. But, for Garrus especially, I wouldn't say there's much development.

From a pure "prestige" point of view, one could argue that Miranda does pretty well: a good amount of content, appears throughout the game, has a personal mission on the crit path, and is the last returning squad member not on the ME3 squad to appear on the crit path (Thane, Mordin, Wrex, Legion, Miranda).

In that sense, it's a bit surprising that it amounts to so little overall, signaling that there are problems with writing/direction/implementation.

I also think appearing late in the game ended up being problematic, as the crunch had really hit by that time.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 02:57 .

[Ares91]

Did Garrus really need more development? I mean Garrus is like my BFF in that game sure he could use some work with the whole family thing. But over all Garrus imo is the most solid character throughout the series.

Skullheart wrote...

So, the worst of Miranda will be:

- No dialogue abour her past with Cerberus, or her thoughts about their new direction.
- No real confrontation with her father. Two words aren't enough for tormenting her for 16(?) years.
- No real contribution in her alive scenario.
- No precense on Cronos station. The most logical character to be on TIM base isn't there with you, just as kratos said, is like not having tali on rannoch arc.

About the romance:
- The lack of affection. Not even a visual kiss were both of them make out alive.
- No real love scene, neither a pillow talk.
- Shepard wakes up alone after the last nightmare with the boy, not having his lover at his side.
- The flashback fiasco.
- Shepard can't keep his promise.

There we go now we have a a Checklist to send to Bioware.

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Coincidentally (Maybe not so, now that I think about it), the 4 most popular characters from ME2 were the ones that received the highest amount of polish for their comebacks.

Well, I'm not sure I would really break it down the way Dr. Doctor did there. Example: Jack has less screentime than many other characters, but was visually revamped, was written by Weekes and has substantial character development.

Garrus and Tali are squad members, of course, and so have a lot of banter and new uniforms, etc. But, for Garrus especially, I wouldn't say there's much development.

From a pure "prestige" point of view, one could argue that Miranda does pretty well: a good amount of content, appears throughout the game, is the only character with a mission on the crit path devoted entirely to her, and is the last returning squad member to appear on the crit path.

In that sense, it's a bit surprising that it amounts to so little over all, signaling that there are problems with writing/direction/implementation.

I wouldn't even say Jack received any "development". She's just... more tame. That's it. She isn't around long enough to display anything. 

The only thing I'll say about Garrus and Tali is that Garrus wasn't touched upon in the slightest, Tali was artificially inflated to being a super-important Admiral (Who's still fighting with Shepard, for some reason, and despite her saying in ME2 that she doesn't want the responsibility). I've already vocalized my distaste for their inclusion. Literally nothing more than reaction to fan *****ing. On the bright side, Garrus is the only character to stay pretty consistent throughout all 3 of his appearances. He plays Robin to Shepard's Batman through every game, but to the least extent in ME3, IMO.

Miranda's appearance at Sanctuary is coincidental at best. You have no idea she's there until you stumble onto the terminals, and I wouldn't say it's devoted entirely to her, since you can do the entire thing and not ever speak to her (I mean, if she's dead at that point).

Modifié par o Ventus, 29 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

I wouldn't even say Jack received any "development". She's just... more tame. That's it. She isn't around long enough to display anything. 

Well, opinions differ I guess, but I think becoming a teacher is a pretty significant piece of development for Jack.

o Ventus wrote...
Miranda's appearance at Sanctuary is coincidental at best. You have no idea she's there until you stumble onto the terminals, and I wouldn't say it's devoted entirely to her, since you can do the entire thing and not ever speak to her (I mean, if she's dead at that point).

I'd say that's largely an implementation issue. Anyway, I'm obviously not pleased with the role. But it's something of a mixed bag overall, in terms of polish and character development.

Modifié par flemm, 29 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[CuseGirl]

The problem with Miranda's ME3 appearance is she got quantity of content but poor quality. Bioware will say "look at all the stuff you got for her in ME3 compared to Thane, Jacob, __insert other ME2 character here__"

So while they're increasing volume for other characters, they won't give us anymore because we got "alot". I feel like we got a soda bottles worth of stuff but it's flat. Jack got maybe a soda can's worth but it's totally fizzed and you even got a cup to pour it in.....

[o Ventus]

CuseGirl wrote...

The problem with Miranda's ME3 appearance is she got quantity of content but poor quality. Bioware will say "look at all the stuff you got for her in ME3 compared to Thane, Jacob, __insert other ME2 character here__"

So while they're increasing volume for other characters, they won't give us anymore because we got "alot". I feel like we got a soda bottles worth of stuff but it's flat. Jack got maybe a soda can's worth but it's totally fizzed and you even got a cup to pour it in.....

Also true.

My own opinion, but I wouldn't really put a lot of oomph into her quantity, either. She didn't exactly get a lot.

[enayasoul]

What's with Miranda scratching above her breasts? This seems to be a new trait of hers? Is she uncomfortable or bashful? What? I'm trying to figure out why she's doing that... coy?

[CuseGirl]

o Ventus wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

The problem with Miranda's ME3 appearance is she got quantity of content but poor quality. Bioware will say "look at all the stuff you got for her in ME3 compared to Thane, Jacob, __insert other ME2 character here__"

So while they're increasing volume for other characters, they won't give us anymore because we got "alot". I feel like we got a soda bottles worth of stuff but it's flat. Jack got maybe a soda can's worth but it's totally fizzed and you even got a cup to pour it in.....

Also true.

My own opinion, but I wouldn't really put a lot of oomph into her quantity, either. She didn't exactly get a lot.

I hear you. I could have been marginally satisfied with the content if we had a short amount of time while she was on the Normandy OR if she had a discussion about her former employer and their new direction, a visible kiss or I love you that didn't include death and her image spliced in somewhere between Joker and Liara's mug during the ending cinematic...

[o Ventus]

enayasoul wrote...

What's with Miranda scratching above her breasts? This seems to be a new trait of hers? Is she uncomfortable or bashful? What? I'm trying to figure out why she's doing that... coy?

I think it's something she does when she's uncomfortable.

No idea though, she isn't the only person who does it.

[enayasoul]

I was watching the first scene with Miranda and my Shepard at the docking bay but can't help but notice that Asari in the background being AWEFULLY nosy with her head looking toward them. Kind of makes me laugh.

[o Ventus]

CuseGirl wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

The problem with Miranda's ME3 appearance is she got quantity of content but poor quality. Bioware will say "look at all the stuff you got for her in ME3 compared to Thane, Jacob, __insert other ME2 character here__"

So while they're increasing volume for other characters, they won't give us anymore because we got "alot". I feel like we got a soda bottles worth of stuff but it's flat. Jack got maybe a soda can's worth but it's totally fizzed and you even got a cup to pour it in.....

Also true.

My own opinion, but I wouldn't really put a lot of oomph into her quantity, either. She didn't exactly get a lot.

I hear you. I could have been marginally satisfied with the content if we had a short amount of time while she was on the Normandy OR if she had a discussion about her former employer and their new direction, a visible kiss or I love you that didn't include death and her image spliced in somewhere between Joker and Liara's mug during the ending cinematic...

Those are 3 things that SHOULD have been there.

[enayasoul]

o Ventus wrote...

enayasoul wrote...

What's with Miranda scratching above her breasts? This seems to be a new trait of hers? Is she uncomfortable or bashful? What? I'm trying to figure out why she's doing that... coy?

I think it's something she does when she's uncomfortable.

No idea though, she isn't the only person who does it.

Seems like it.  Yeah, I caught Liara doing that in Shepard cabin showing off that time capsule. 

[CuseGirl]

o Ventus wrote...

enayasoul wrote...

What's with Miranda scratching above her breasts? This seems to be a new trait of hers? Is she uncomfortable or bashful? What? I'm trying to figure out why she's doing that... coy?

I think it's something she does when she's uncomfortable.

No idea though, she isn't the only person who does it.

Lolll...Mass Effect mannerisms....