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[Ieldra]

Mr Massakka wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think EDI is necessary for thematic reasons given the ending.

This is actually what I think is the worst part about ME3: They established a completely new plot from scratch with their Synthetics-vs-Organics crap.
Drew hinted Dark Energy throughout ME1 and 2 several times, and you would have truly had this "Of course! It all makes sense now!" moment in the ending... even with the StarChild.

Now EDI had to take over the Cerberus part, only to consolidate the new plot. It's sad, really.

Organics vs. synthetics was a major theme right from the start, much more than dark energy. Remember the Rogue VI mission in ME1? That AI on the Citadel? Overlord? The whole geth plot? The Reapers being biosynthetic constructs? There was just no hint that it would become the theme that defined the Reapers' purpose, though you can take the Reaper on Rannoch and what it says as foreshadowing. I think it was done that way on purpose. They didn't want players to decipher the Reapers' purpose beforehand. Maybe that's why they deleted the "technological singularity" Codex entry.
 
EDI and Miranda are interesting figures in that regard - spontaneously awakened synthetic vs. designed organic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2012 - 07:36 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I'm thinking one result of the survey might be that... the endings are crap 

Now that would be surprising

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

JohnTSCC wrote...

@flemm

Excellent. Where do people get the energy to do these things?

Anyway, it's good to see that they were uncompromising in their vision blablabla

Oh my....seing it like this, the parallels become even more striking. And did anyone notice the parallel between Tong's "If you survive...then find us" and Miranda's "finish this....and find me"?

At least Ion Storm's writers had the sense to keep the details of the merge undefined. "A new...DNA"....*scoffs*

Well, DX is a masterpiece (though an ugly one). One of the few games more than ten years old I replay so often that I've kept it on my computers continuously and bought a digital copy last year. I don't really mind that they used very similar endings in ME3. The problem is that while in DX they were well-integrated into the story of the last mission and didn't feel like "push the button" endings, ME3's endings feel like foreign objects tacked on at the last minute. I don't even mind that the organic/synthetic theme has come to define the Reapers' purpose. Only that it felt tacked-on and was so abysmally badly written.

Hmm....I wonder. In the DX world, would Miranda be a member of the Illuminati?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2012 - 08:05 .

[Ares91]

Omg I can't believe I forgot about legion. I need to replace samara with legion.
So Miranda, Garrus, Ashley, Wrex, Grunt, Legion, Mordin that's my squad....I think man theres so many great characters to choose from lol

Modifié par Ares91, 01 mai 2012 - 01:18 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 I think it was done that way on purpose. They didn't want players to decipher the Reapers' purpose beforehand. Maybe that's why they deleted the "technological singularity" Codex entry.

Maybe. In the end that's somewhat counter-productive, though. Great endings feel simultaneously surprising and inevitable: you don't see it coming, but when it happens, it feels like there was no other way for it to happen. Granted, that's really hard to do.

But the ending probably needed a lot more foreshadowing, not less, for it to feel natural. Of course, execution was horrible, as well.

Modifié par flemm, 01 mai 2012 - 03:30 .

[cbutz]

Cut a long OT rambling ramble.

Modifié par cbutz, 01 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[flemm]

cbutz wrote...

Cut a long OT rambling ramble.

Bit of a shame, really. It was good

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Organics vs. synthetics was a major theme right from the start, much more than dark energy. Remember the Rogue VI mission in ME1? That AI on the Citadel? Overlord? The whole geth plot? The Reapers being biosynthetic constructs? There was just no hint that it would become the theme that defined the Reapers' purpose, though you can take the Reaper on Rannoch and what it says as foreshadowing. I think it was done that way on purpose. They didn't want players to decipher the Reapers' purpose beforehand. Maybe that's why they deleted the "technological singularity" Codex entry.
 
EDI and Miranda are interesting figures in that regard - spontaneously awakened synthetic vs. designed organic.

The dark energy concept might've had less content but I think it stood out more. Organics vs synthetics was just sort of accepted as the state of things, even for the quarian-geth problem. Dark energy, at least at Haestrom was emphasized as a current threat with greater consequences while organic vs synthetic has sort of just become part of the tapestry.
Besides it really wasn't that prevalent. The rogue VI and Citadel AI were just side missions. Overlord was optional DLC. The thing with the geth plot was that it was just one of the many things happening in the world, on an equal pedestal with the genophage. I would say it was a theme but not necessarily a major one. Thing is, even though we could think of the Reapers as machines they still stood on their own side party due to their mysterious nature and partly due to their threat level. They were this other that threatened everything, overshadowing sideplots like the genophage or organic vs synthetic. Even though we knew they were machines we still thought of them as more than killbots.


... until the endings came along and said it "**** it. Killbots it is." I get the feeling you'll disagree but revealing the Reapers' purpose was a mistake. Better that they had left it unknown. The CB was tipping their hand enough.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
... until the endings came along and said it "**** it. Killbots it is." I get the feeling you'll disagree but revealing the Reapers' purpose was a mistake. Better that they had left it unknown. The CB was tipping their hand enough.

You have the right feeling. I disagree. Revealing the Reapers' purpose was the one thing I wanted from ME3's ending I got. I wanted the ending to subvert the cosmic horror story and turn the Reapers from Space Cthulhu into something we can understand to some degree. I wanted that because the search for understanding is part of the essence of the SF genre for me, and being told "we cannot understand them, all we can do is destroy them" goes against everything I believe in. Here's the deeper reason I dislike the Destroy ending btw..

Admittedly that came somewhat out of the blue, and I understand why many people have trouble adapting their perspective after the way the Reapers and their minions have been presented in ME1 and ME2. But I like that the story challenges you to change your perspective, and in hindsight there is plenty of foreshadowing of the Reapers' purpose (Sovereign: "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution"). If you approach it, as I always did, with a perpective "the Reapers are interesting and we must solve their mysteries even as we defend ourselves from them"), the revelation could've been a huge "now it all makes sense" moment. If the writers hadn't ruined it all with the attempt to reduce the complexity for the unwashed masses. I don't think I've ever seen the KISS principle misapplied as severely as here.

BTW - and to get back on topic - that's what I've always liked in Miranda, perhaps even more than any other character trait: she will not easily accept that something's impossible to do or to understand. Her knowledge made humanity cross a border everyone thought couldn't be crossed when she brought Shepard back..

[hot_heart]

Thing is, at least the dark energy stuff had a sense of mystery in that only the Reapers seemed to have some idea of how to control it. Just seems odd that they could be around for millenia and can't solve the 'organics vs. synthetics' problem via any other means.

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Thing is, at least the dark energy stuff had a sense of mystery in that only the Reapers seemed to have some idea of how to control it. Just seems odd that they could be around for millenia and can't solve the 'organics vs. synthetics' problem via any other means.

Yeah, I think that's a huge issue. The endings ask us to accept that the creation of an A.I. that will destroy organic life is inevitable. But... the game itself tends to contradict this idea. Because many story elements suggest that organics and synthetics can live together in harmony, and they tend to become more like one another. Even one of the endings corresponds to this.

This is where the dark matter idea is clearly superior.

Modifié par flemm, 01 mai 2012 - 06:05 .

[Lawrence0294]

My dream squad would be.....Miranda, legion, garrus, javik, zaeed, thane and kaidan.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...
Thing is, at least the dark energy stuff had a sense of mystery in that only the Reapers seemed to have some idea of how to control it. Just seems odd that they could be around for millenia and can't solve the 'organics vs. synthetics' problem via any other means.

Yeah, I think that's a huge issue. The endings ask us to accept that the creation of an A.I. that will destroy organic life is inevitable. But... the game itself tends to contradict this idea. Because many story elements suggest that organics and synthetics can live together in harmony, and they tend to become more like one another. Even one of the endings corresponds to this.

This is where the dark matter idea is clearly superior.

These synthetics are not more intelligent than humans. The short version of "the problem" can be phrased like this: "When an synthetic has been created which is more intelligent than an organic, the age of organics is at its end." From then on, the future will be determined by synthetics, and eventual extinction will result not because of any malice, but because of the same disregard that makes humans on Earth habitually cause the extinction of life forms less intelligent than they are. That, too, needn't necessarily happen, but it's an acceptable premise for a story.

But I believe we're getting seriously off-topic now.

MIRANDA!


Hmm...thinking of things Miranda would do after the war. She wouldn't be trusted with any sensitive work by the Alliance, and she has lost every home base she ever had.

[flemm]

kratos0294 wrote...

My dream squad would be.....Miranda, legion, garrus, javik, zaeed, thane and kaidan.

I would go with Miranda, Mordin.... then probably Jack, Javik, Liara and Jacob.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You have the right feeling. I disagree. Revealing the Reapers' purpose was the one thing I wanted from ME3's ending I got. I wanted the ending to subvert the cosmic horror story and turn the Reapers from Space Cthulhu into something we can understand to some degree. I wanted that because the search for understanding is part of the essence of the SF genre for me, and being told "we cannot understand them, all we can do is destroy them" goes against everything I believe in. Here's the deeper reason I dislike the Destroy ending btw..

Admittedly that came somewhat out of the blue, and I understand why many people have trouble adapting their perspective after the way the Reapers and their minions have been presented in ME1 and ME2. But I like that the story challenges you to change your perspective, and in hindsight there is plenty of foreshadowing of the Reapers' purpose (Sovereign: "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution"). If you approach it, as I always did, with a perpective "the Reapers are interesting and we must solve their mysteries even as we defend ourselves from them"), the revelation could've been a huge "now it all makes sense" moment. If the writers hadn't ruined it all with the attempt to reduce the complexity for the unwashed masses. I don't think I've ever seen the KISS principle misapplied as severely as here.

BTW - and to get back on topic - that's what I've always liked in Miranda, perhaps even more than any other character trait: she will not easily accept that something's impossible to do or to understand. Her knowledge made humanity cross a border everyone thought couldn't be crossed when she brought Shepard back..

Well to be fair "mecha-Cthulu" really went out the window with Sovereign's destruction, which proved Reapers are not invincible. Then it was further buried in ME2 where we find out how they reproduce. But that should've been it. You can have something be "understood to some degree" yet still be in the dark about the reason for it all. By the end of ME2 we can be pretty sure about what Reapers are. We can even guess at what they do. But if they're presented as too vast to comprehend even if it simply in terms of scale and not some cosmic horror space magic way, than that should remain. The search for understanding has to be present, sure. But it is not invalidated if it fails to understand everything that is presented.I have no problem with this notion because it is evident to me that there can (and most likely do) exist things too vast for our current forms to comprehend- and I don't mean this in a Lovecraftian way.

Our perspective as human beings is terribly limited if you step back to take a look. It's based on imagination and our imagination is limited only to what we can experience. It is of course natural to keep wanting to go further. But there is an upper limit to how high the human form can go. We have to change into something more to go higher (not that that would be impossible) But right now, it's beyond the scope of our world or the ME world.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[Stalker]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm...thinking of things Miranda would do after the war. She wouldn't be trusted with any sensitive work by the Alliance, and she has lost every home base she ever had. 

Searching for a way to bring Shepard back, obviously.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 01 mai 2012 - 06:45 .

[CrutchCricket]

Miranda, Kasumi, Legion, Mordin, Samara, Javik, Wrex.

Liara and Tali would have to stay in touch though.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm...thinking of things Miranda would do after the war. She wouldn't be trusted with any sensitive work by the Alliance, and she has lost every home base she ever had.

I think she'd find Alliance work with Hackett. He plays this closer to the chest and doesn't shy away from covert stuff.

[jtav]

I think things like seeing humans get enough to eat are going to be taking up much of her time. After that, I see her taking up a role similar to Henry, only she shares her discoveries with all mankind. I see her taking a particular interest in communications so she can speak to Ori once more.

And Shepard? Should remain dead/inaccessible. She'll mourn a romanced Shepard, but I hope she moves on.

[Attila 6]

What do you guys think about when Ashley calling accusing Miranda that she is not a real person ?

[MisterJB]

It instantaneously turned me into someone who hates Ashley Williams.

[Aliqaiser]

OK, folks,
Here are 2 of my Idea's of the planets surface, (just different Atmosphere)
I would like you to choose, the one you find most appropriate, the one with the most votes, will get the final touches, I still have alot to do, These are only 50% completed.
Let me know what you think.

http://s1265.photobu...yofThelost6.jpg
and

http://s1265.photobu...yofThelost8.jpg

[jtav]

I always figured Miranda would be the catty one. I always save Kaidan, so I can't really comment.

[Lawrence0294]

Aliqaiser wrote...

OK, folks,
Here are 2 of my Idea's of the planets surface, (just different Atmosphere)
I would like you to choose, the one you find most appropriate, the one with the most votes, will get the final touches, I still have alot to do, These are only 50% completed.
Let me know what you think.

http://s1265.photobu...yofThelost6.jpg
and

http://s1265.photobu...yofThelost8.jpg

I'll have to go with the second one 

[Lawrence0294]

MisterJB wrote...

It instantaneously turned me into someone who hates Ashley Williams.

Maybe not hate but it definitly turned down respect i had towards her