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[flemm]

Mr Massakka wrote...
Hopefully you are right.
I just lost my blind faith into everything BioWare...

Yeah, I understand. Anyway, I wouldn't assume anything, it's one reason I think it's worth communicating certain ideas in a variety of ways, like we have been doing.

Modifié par flemm, 19 mai 2012 - 10:27 .

[o Ventus]

I'm not against the idea of Miranda settling down. Just not immediately. I mean, there's work to be done rebuilding humanity and getting civilization into working order. Humanity's work has now only just begun, and it isn't going to do itself.

Depending on the ending you work with, Shepard may or may not be able to pitch in as well.

[jtav]

I'm pessimistic, and there's a small part of me that thinks I might have to deal with a Shep Jr. in my epilogues, but if they haven't noticed our issues, they're blind.

My prediction: either she assumes the reins of Lawson Inc and becomes a more humanitarian Steve Jobs or we get humanity's STG.

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

I'm pessimistic, and there's a small part of me that thinks I might have to deal with a Shep Jr. in my epilogues, but if they haven't noticed our issues, they're blind.

My prediction: either she assumes the reins of Lawson Inc and becomes a more humanitarian Steve Jobs or we get humanity's STG.

I want the STG, which means we'd probably be more likely to get the "more humanitarian Steve Jobs."

[Stalker]

Td1984 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm pessimistic, and there's a small part of me that thinks I might have to deal with a Shep Jr. in my epilogues, but if they haven't noticed our issues, they're blind.

My prediction: either she assumes the reins of Lawson Inc and becomes a more humanitarian Steve Jobs or we get humanity's STG.

I want the STG, which means we'd probably be more likely to get the "more humanitarian Steve Jobs."

I agree.
"Rebuild Cerberus" would be my perfect conclusion. Turning Cerberus in what they have always claimed to be: Humanity's Sword, Human STG.
If she rebuilds Cerberus or starts a new company would be a minor difference then. I just like Cerberus because she actually believed in their ideas once and I (as a real person) still do so.

[jtav]

Humanity's STG was so beautifully set up in ME2 that I still find it incredible that it apparently wasn't considered. It's what Miranda says repeatedly she wants. And it's what Cerberus manifestly is not. All the pieces were there. They just didn't put them together.

[Td1984]

I believe in what Miranda views Cerberus ought to be. Keep in mind, while I believe humanity has the largest population, only about 3% of humans ever serve in the Alliance military. Therefore, we need something akin to the salarians' STG to help protect our interests. That's originally what Cerberus was supposed to be I believe, but TIM "warped it" and went way too far.

[jtav]

Do I want my shamelessly besotted Shep to let Miranda do the bubble or second fire team? What Miranda wants Miranda gets.

[o Ventus]

Td1984 wrote...

I believe in what Miranda views Cerberus ought to be. Keep in mind, while I believe humanity has the largest population, only about 3% of humans ever serve in the Alliance military. Therefore, we need something akin to the salarians' STG to help protect our interests. That's originally what Cerberus was supposed to be I believe, but TIM "warped it" and went way too far.

I like to think Cerberus was doomed from the start. The original intentions may have been good (I have no doubts about that), but TIM slowly but inevitably became more indoctrinated (From the Arca monolith in Evolution), before going full-blast in ME3.

[jtav]

But something like Cerberus is necessary. The game is rigged, and humanity needs a way to level the playing field.

[MisterJB]

The problem is that most of ME3 seems to be blissfully unware of that.
There are some great parts like the yahg on Sur'Kesh, the Beacon on Thessia and the bomb on Tuchanka that show just how shady the background of galactic politics can be. But there is just no way to suggest humans attempt the same and whenever someone brings up the topic of black ops or Cerberus it is just to talk about how in many ways it can go wrong.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Humanity's STG was so beautifully set up in ME2 that I still find it incredible that it apparently wasn't considered. It's what Miranda says repeatedly she wants. And it's what Cerberus manifestly is not. All the pieces were there. They just didn't put them together.

Well, it probably has a lot to do with the fact that, the game just isn't ready to admit the existence of the vision of Cerberus that Miranda represented in ME2. You're not really supposed to trust TIM in ME2. You may think he has a point, or you may find his arguments compelling, but he's presented as manipulative throughout.

Miranda is not. She is telling the truth as she sincerely believes it. She's trying to convince you, not trick you, or manipulate you. When she says she wants to be a part of Humanity's STG, and that she admires Mordin's work, she is speaking from the heart. That is undeniable.

So, if you drop that point of view entirely in the next game, and continue on the premise that Cerberus has always been this evil terrorist organisation, a lot of what Miranda says just has to be ignored. And it *is* ignored. Because it corresponds to something that you are essentially pretending never existed.

From the standpoint of Miranda's character, it's incomprehensible that she would have no dialogue about Cerberus, no follow up on Humanity's STG, etc. But if you look at it from the point of view of avoiding/eliminating any reference to an idealistic view of Cerberus, it is comprehensible (albeit inexcusable).

Modifié par flemm, 20 mai 2012 - 01:33 .

[Td1984]

o Ventus wrote...

Td1984 wrote...

I believe in what Miranda views Cerberus ought to be. Keep in mind, while I believe humanity has the largest population, only about 3% of humans ever serve in the Alliance military. Therefore, we need something akin to the salarians' STG to help protect our interests. That's originally what Cerberus was supposed to be I believe, but TIM "warped it" and went way too far.

I like to think Cerberus was doomed from the start. The original intentions may have been good (I have no doubts about that), but TIM slowly but inevitably became more indoctrinated (From the Arca monolith in Evolution), before going full-blast in ME3.

Exactly my point. Though, with as xenophobic as TIM is, even without being indoctrinated, he probably still would've taken it a bit too far.

[jtav]

Ah, yes. Campbell and Westmoreland. Can we forget to rescue them in the EC?

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

But something like Cerberus is necessary. The game is rigged, and humanity needs a way to level the playing field.

Agreed. That's why my two non-Spacer Sheps were both pro-Cerberus. One of them is Earthborn and the other Colonist, so they weren't involved with the Alliance from birth, so they're able to take a step backward and realize something like Cerberus is needed. At this stage, we still face too much of an uphill battle to be considered a true equal and the Alliance can't handle it all.

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

Ah, yes. Campbell and Westmoreland. Can we forget to rescue them in the EC?

I think only Campbell is xenophobic. Westmoreland is okay. Since I play with the subtitles on, I'll try and pay more attention to what Westmoreland says as this playthrough progresses.

[jtav]

What I want to know is why the retconned Miranda to Cerberis 2IC. Because that makes her retroactively complicit in a lot, if only through willful ignorance.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

What I want to know is why the retconned Miranda to Cerberis 2IC. Because that makes her retroactively complicit in a lot, if only through willful ignorance.

No idea, especially since it's presented in such an off-hand manner (in a line that's specific to the romance, I think).

Modifié par flemm, 20 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[jtav]

It feels like a bone. But it's a strange one given how thoroughly rotten ME3 Cerberus is revealed to be. Space N*zis. Which would be okay if ME3 Miranda weren't so decent. Even Lazrus Miranda doesn't fit.

[Dr. Doctor]

The Asari horde their Prothean tech, the STG secretly uplifts other species, and the Turians had their bomb on Tunchanka. Humanity can't have an organization that looks out for it's interests?

jtav wrote...
Ah, yes. Campbell and Westmoreland. Can we forget to rescue them in the EC?

Say what you will about Cerberus, but I cared more about the original SR2 crew than the Alliance crew. They actually made the ship feel alive rather than reminding me how much I hated the war room security chekpoint. My favorite crew conversation in ME2 is between Hadley and Matthews:

Hadley: "How are we going to stop the Collectors?"

Matthews: "Don't worry, Shepard and Lawson are on it."

[jtav]

Before the leak, I'd hoped we'd find Miranda leading the remaining SR-2 crew on some dangerous mission. She tells them it's dangerous and Matthews pipes up and says any man here will follow her into hell. Miranda and Shep share a look before Miranda turns away to hide her tears.

[feliciano2040]

MisterJB wrote...

Anyone who preferred ME2 was already barely considered at all.

 

Not out of malice, they got themselves in a bundle, but they still tried to bring everyone with some measure of importance, and beyond a simply cameo.

Hell, if my expectations are fulfilled, then we might see more of the ME2 squadmates in the Extended Cut.

MisterJB wrote... 

Regardless, Thane has no business on the Cerberus arc. He should be working with Shepard to stop the indocrinated hanar and save Khaje, not throwing himself at Kai Leng for nothing besides the "Assassin vs Assassin" dynamic.

I wasn't talking about Thane or Jack in the Cerberus arc, I was saying that, if you include one or two of the ME2 LI's as squadmates, or in a noticeably more important role, then you're going to ****** off some fans who might've expected the same for the character they loved that wasn't given the same treatment, I think Bioware made the best choice and decided to balance it out.

And be real yo, you're going to complain about that scene with Kai Leng ? That s*** was nothing but pure rocket sauce ! Seriously, I don't get the Kai Leng hate AT ALL.

MisterJB wrote... 

It could but this is the type of content that should have been present in the game in the first place.

 

But...........why ? Just because it's Miranda, who you happen to like ? What if I loved Kasumi and Samara and wanted large content for both of them instead of Miranda ? Should Bioware appease me or you ? That's the issue here.

MisterJB wrote... 

The thing is, I don't think you need to remove anything. The missions are already there; Grissom Academy, Cerberus Coup, Gellix, Horizon, Cronos; we just need something else other than the type of enemy uniting them.
Let Miranda and Jack come aboard the Normandy early on. They can serve as Legion and Tali and present differing point of views about Cerberus; Miranda the wonders human ingenuity unbounded by rules and constrinctions can accomplish, Jack the horrors humans who don't account to anyone or anything can create and justify. Then just give us a meaningfull choice at the end of Cronos; should Cerberus be destroyed?; and presto. Quality.

As much as I agree about Cronos being "larger", I also believe one has to admit that talk is cheap.

I think different decisions shoul've been taken in the planning stages, maybe expand the Cerberus Headquarters mission while dumping other content not as necessary or as engaging, like precisely Gellix, which was mostly a mission whose main plot threads and characters could've very well appeared somewhere else.

[Shotokanguy]

jtav wrote...

 Miranda and Shep share a look before Miranda turns away to hide her tears.

That's what you would want? Unless there's some prior significance I'm missing, that sounds overly emotional for her. I figure you would prefer a beaming, pride filled smile and a quick nod of thanks to him.

[Dr. Doctor]

What's even worse is the fact that the old Cerberus crew most likely got turned into husked soldiers for TIM's army. It would have been all the more terrifying if Shepard was going through Sanctuary only to see the crew he saved from the Collectors be turned into abominations by the organization they believed in.

[feliciano2040]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

What's even worse is the fact that the old Cerberus crew most likely got turned into husked soldiers for TIM's army. It would have been all the more terrifying if Shepard was going through Sanctuary only to see the crew he saved from the Collectors be turned into abominations by the organization they believed in.

Kinda makes me wonder just what the hell happened to Gardner  !

(The cook / janitor)