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[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Regarding our disconnect from the writers, I think someone fairly high up decided to strip her and several other team members of their controversial aspects. I also think Jay W leans too heavily on cliches. Combined, they led to a Miranda obsessed with her sister. I think, also, the need for her story to be comprehensible to people who had never played the game before didn't help.

Heh, whenever I try to come up with a rationale for why ME3 Miranda is so thinly written compared with her ME2 counterpart, I always end up with a laundry list of possible poor choices and misguided ideas that may have led to it. Whatever.

Suffice it to say that they did not *ahem* capture the complexities of the character. (Euphemism.)

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Regarding our disconnect from the writers, I think someone fairly high up decided to strip her and several other team members of their controversial aspects. I also think Jay W leans too heavily on cliches. Combined, they led to a Miranda obsessed with her sister. I think, also, the need for her story to be comprehensible to people who had never played the game before didn't help.

For his first crack at writing a Bioware game he did a pretty good job, I'd have prefered it if they had given him Vega or a character who didn't have a vetran writer from the previous game but that's just me.

I don't understand how someone could look at the end of a trilogy and say "yeah I want to jump in right here." With ME2 the PS3 folk got a Previously on Mass Effect video and the Genesis comic to make up for the lack of ME1. ME3 makes Vega the village idiot who for some reason doesn't know much about the galaxy he lives in and also includes a good twenty minutes worth of codex entries to explain what the heck is going on.

I think that The Witcher 2 for the 360 did a pretty good job of helping players who didn't play the first game through the use of a few video Codex entries:

Video 1

Video 2

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 25 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I don't understand how someone could look at the end of a trilogy and say "yeah I want to jump in right here."

Well, I also think that people are used to jumping into these things in the middle. Happens all the time. Most big game franchises already have multiple installments, and often people don't want to go back to the earlier ones because of outdated gameplay and graphics, etc.

In another domain, look at the Avengers. Waaaay more people saw that than saw all the individual movies. They probably missed some stuff and wondered about some details that they didn't fully understand, etc.

But either:
1) It doesn't really matter, you get the gist anyway.
2) It's not rocket science, people are used to this type of story.
3) It might entice them to check out the previous movies/games anyway.

ME2, for example, doesn't really try very hard at all to explain stuff for new players. The opening, which is brilliant, is pretty disorienting if you don't know what happened previously (or even a bit if you do). ME3's opening sequence tries much harder to be "accessible," but I don't think it really makes much of a difference.

Modifié par flemm, 25 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Stalker]

flemm wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I don't understand how someone could look at the end of a trilogy and say "yeah I want to jump in right here."

Well, I also think that people are used to jumping into these things in the middle. Happens all the time. Most big game franchises already have multiple installments, and often people don't want to go back to the earlier ones because of outdated gameplay and graphics, etc.

In another domain, look at the Avengers. Waaaay more people saw that than saw all the individual movies. They probably missed some stuff and wondered about some details that they didn't fully understand, etc.

But either:
1) It doesn't really matter, you get the gist anyway.
2) It's not rocket science, people are used to this type of story.
3) It might entice them to check out the previous movies/games anyway.

ME2, for example, doesn't really try very hard at all to explain stuff for new players. The opening, which is brilliant, is pretty disorienting if you don't know what happened previously (or even a bit if you do). ME3's opening sequence tries much harder to be "accessible," but I don't think it really makes much of a difference.

Well, BioWare sure spent a lot of work making it accessable for new players...

That's why the game was mediocre imo. It's main-focus was misplaced. I can imagine ME3 was a great game for those who played ME for the first time, "a great part to jump into the trilogy" indeed. 

However, it tried to hard to attract to the masses, more than satisfying the long-yeared fans with the last part of a trilogy.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 25 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[hot_heart]

Jumping into the middle of things tends to make for more 'authentic' writing, and is a chance to create some intrigue if done correctly.

The start of ME2 probably caused some headaches in terms of Lazarus but it made for hell of an opening for old and new players alike. And you got a bunch of new characters to meet in the process.

Making ME3 a jumping-on point was a stupid idea and, considering ME2 is the clear favourite of the trilogy (and the startpoint for PS3 players), they didn't exactly help themselves by putting a lot on characters more established in ME1.

Because people wouldn't understand the significance of Anderson they have to throw in all that awful dialogue ("I owe you one") during the escape from Earth, they shoehorn Liara in again and layer on her relevance, and a whole new character was created to aid new players.

That probably sounds angry than I intend. Basically, BioWare did not help themselves.

[ripslip]

Didn't they say that they viewed ME3 as one great big ending/goodbye? So why spend so much effort to make it a great starting point for new players? Yes, absolutely bring in new players and let them fall in love with the IP, but do so without insulting the loyalty of the vets and the intelligence of the new players. There's an elegant way to do it, but what we were given is definitely not it. And unfortunately for us, Miranda is one of the characters who suffered as a result.

[Stalker]

ripslip wrote...

Didn't they say that they viewed ME3 as one great big ending/goodbye?

I still laugh everytime I hear it.

[Vertigo_1]

ripslip wrote...

Didn't they say that they viewed ME3 as one great big ending/goodbye? So why spend so much effort to make it a great starting point for new players?

It was something EA wanted Bioware to implement with ME3.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 mai 2012 - 08:26 .

[Td1984]

I'm starting to get an urge to play MP. I know I want to play something, but the games I have, don't peak my interest all that much, so it might be time to try and give MP a shot and hope my modem cooperates.

[cbutz]

Anyone remember LuxDragon? He was doing the really awesome fan fiction/novelization of ME 2. He was doing a terrific job with it. He needs to finish it, I hope everything is fine with him in real life.

I mention this because he would have wrote great letters, RP letters, and fan fictions for these projects...

[o Ventus]

ripslip wrote...

Didn't they say that they viewed ME3 as one great big ending/goodbye? So why spend so much effort to make it a great starting point for new players? Yes, absolutely bring in new players and let them fall in love with the IP, but do so without insulting the loyalty of the vets and the intelligence of the new players. There's an elegant way to do it, but what we were given is definitely not it. And unfortunately for us, Miranda is one of the characters who suffered as a result.

They were basically marketing to the same people that saw Return of the Jedi before A New Hope.

[ripslip]

They were basically marketing to the same people that saw Return of the Jedi before A New Hope.

Which is frustrating for the people who saw it in its correct order. But yes, let's cater to those who didn't. That won't make your loyal fans who shell out money angry at all. 

I'm coming across more harshly than I intend, I think. Catering to new players isn't one of my big grievances about ME3, although it's arguably/probably the cause of a lot of the things I dislike. Meh.

Modifié par ripslip, 25 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[kookie28]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

ripslip wrote...

Didn't they say that they viewed ME3 as one great big ending/goodbye? So why spend so much effort to make it a great starting point for new players?

It was something EA wanted Bioware to implement with ME3.

Because money.

[flemm]

Mr Massakka wrote...
That's why the game was mediocre imo. It's main-focus was misplaced. I can imagine ME3 was a great game for those who played ME for the first time, "a great part to jump into the trilogy" indeed. 

I agree with the bolded, at least it was a contributing factor. Not too sure that it was a better game for new players than, say, ME2, though. Which makes it all the more wasted effort.

Reason I say that being, in part, that the "new player-friendly" design intent in certain areas runs counter to the design philosophy otherwise, which is to make imported games better and more desirable, because more characters are alive, etc. In ME2 you really didn't miss much if you didn't import, comparatively.

Modifié par flemm, 25 mai 2012 - 09:10 .

[Vertigo_1]

5 days left for submissions for the Miranda FanBook!***

Group: social.bioware.com/group/7217/&v=discussions#group

The book will incude letter, art and fiction. Submissions can be sent to mirandafanbook@gmail.com or to myself or flemm via PM.

***Exceptions to this are being made for large projects such as cosplay and comics, rest assured you will have more time to complete these

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 mai 2012 - 09:30 .

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

Regarding our disconnect from the writers, I think someone fairly high up decided to strip her and several other team members of their controversial aspects. I also think Jay W leans too heavily on cliches. Combined, they led to a Miranda obsessed with her sister. I think, also, the need for her story to be comprehensible to people who had never played the game before didn't help.

Agree they decided to strip her of controversial aspects so as to make players who might not have liked her before sympathise or feel sorry for her when she died.

Also the presentation of Cerberus in game was devolved from ME2's grey portrayal back into a one dimensional one. Therefore having Miranda interact with the Cerberus arc was deemed bad.

Also as she was excluded from the squad i'd guess and it would be easier for them if her story to was self contained.

I don't blame her ME3 writer as it seems pretty obvious to me they were boxed into a corner and told to write based on what was in that corner.

[srjepsen]

browse.deviantart.com/
This is the best render I've seen in a while, I think we all fantasize about kissing that genetically perfect butt XD (among other things!!)

[o Ventus]

srjepsen wrote...

browse.deviantart.com/
This is the best render I've seen in a while, I think we all fantasize about kissing that genetically perfect butt XD (among other things!!)

I'd have went with Sheploo.

[hot_heart]

Phew. I got chapter eight done. I probably say this every time, but this seemed like the toughest. Balancing the dialogue with other stuff was tricky. I'd be happy to hear what you guys think.

Modifié par hot_heart, 25 mai 2012 - 10:31 .

[srjepsen]

o Ventus wrote...

srjepsen wrote...

browse.deviantart.com/
This is the best render I've seen in a while, I think we all fantasize about kissing that genetically perfect butt XD (among other things!!)

I'd have went with Sheploo.

True, but I think femshep is just as likely to let her desires take control with that ass always in view

[flemm]

srjepsen wrote...

True, but I think femshep is just as likely to let her desires take control with that ass always in view

So it would seem. Can't say I blame her

[Dr. Doctor]

I think that after ME2 they really painted themselves into a corner with the whole "they might be dead" mechanic. The SM was a really neat idea but placing it right in the middle of the series means that the ME2 squad couldn't get as much focus placed on them because they might not have survived the SM.

Have ME2 be less of The Dirty Dozen in space and make it more like the movies leading up to the Avengers
where we're introduced to this rag-tag group of the galaxy's best and
brightest and find out who they are along with squaring off against the
Collectors. ME3 would be like the Avengers we get the whole team back and take the fight to the Reapers

What would have been neat is if they took the Suicide Mission mechanic and used it in ME3 rather than ME2. Fighting in this intergalactic war where characters you care about could die based on how ready you are would seem fitting for the final act.

The only other thing I would change is the EMS system. Yes I understand that it's easier to "make player choices count" by assigning a numerical value to them in the form of War Assets but having a bunch of named and numbered things that we don't see the final battle doesn't feel rewarding. I'd have liked to seen something like ME2's science lab where we could have Normandy's engineers and scientists developing upgrades for the ship, squad, and troops and then show what happens when their put to use.

.

[o Ventus]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I think that after ME2 they really painted themselves into a corner with the whole "they might be dead" mechanic. The SM was a really neat idea but placing it right in the middle of the series means that the ME2 squad couldn't get as much focus placed on them because they might not have survived the SM.

Have ME2 be less of The Dirty Dozen in space and make it more like the movies leading up to the Avengers
where we're introduced to this rag-tag group of the galaxy's best and
brightest and find out who they are along with squaring off against the
Collectors. ME3 would be like the Avengers we get the whole team back and take the fight to the Reapers

What would have been neat is if they took the Suicide Mission mechanic and used it in ME3 rather than ME2. Fighting in this intergalactic war where characters you care about could die based on how ready you are would seem fitting for the final act.

The only other thing I would change is the EMS system. Yes I understand that it's easier to "make player choices count" by assigning a numerical value to them in the form of War Assets but having a bunch of named and numbered things that we don't see the final battle doesn't feel rewarding. I'd have liked to seen something like ME2's science lab where we could have Normandy's engineers and scientists developing upgrades for the ship, squad, and troops and then show what happens when their put to use.

.

This. Dear [insert deity name here], this.

[drwells123]

srjepsen wrote...

browse.deviantart.com/
This is the best render I've seen in a while, I think we all fantasize about kissing that genetically perfect butt XD (among other things!!)

I find myself mentally combining that with this.

srjepsen wrote...
True, but I think femshep is just as likely to let her desires take control with that ass always in view [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

It has been known to distract her.

Ieldra2 wrote...
IMO there was a "Chuck" episode where Sarah had dyed her hair black and walked around in a close-fitting black leather outfit. That was generally regarded as a shoutout to ME2. A link to the scene was posted here some time ago. I vaguely recall Chuck looking like a carp...

Thanks, that must be what I saw. I'll go look.

Modifié par drwells123, 26 mai 2012 - 03:18 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

To think....Miri was born in 2150, and humanity did not find the Mass Relay at Pluto and made First Contact with Alien Species until 2157. So Miri, and Shepard were around during the Discovery of our Mass Relay and the Discovery of Aliens.