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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#51626
Ieldra

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yesikareyes wrote...
Doesn't James Bond sleep with many women? I don't think that ever counts as prostitution. I don't think that made him look like a floozy and all. Maybe in an AU, Miranda would be this type of femme fatale. She won't sleep with just anyone.

The double standard strikes again. Miranda would never be forgiven if she were that kind of character (just see the reactions in the Miranda thread last summer when Miranda's sexuality was a hot topic), but in James Bond it's almost a desirable atttribute.

Which is why I would absolutely love to see your scenario.

 

#51627
Jebel Krong

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Ieldra2 wrote...

yesikareyes wrote...
Doesn't James Bond sleep with many women? I don't think that ever counts as prostitution. I don't think that made him look like a floozy and all. Maybe in an AU, Miranda would be this type of femme fatale. She won't sleep with just anyone.

The double standard strikes again. Miranda would never be forgiven if she were that kind of character (just see the reactions in the Miranda thread last summer when Miranda's sexuality was a hot topic), but in James Bond it's almost a desirable atttribute.

Which is why I would absolutely love to see your scenario.

 


which is driven by human sexual dimporphism and there's no changing that when the primary percentage of gamers are still male: promiscuity being desirable in males and not females.

personally i could see miranda engaging in sex if a mission called for it, but only if necessary, she's too wary and professional for anything else. to take an analogue: black widow, and miranda is more on the science side of her skill-set anyway.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 mai 2012 - 06:59 .


#51628
o Ventus

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Ieldra2 wrote...

yesikareyes wrote...
Doesn't James Bond sleep with many women? I don't think that ever counts as prostitution. I don't think that made him look like a floozy and all. Maybe in an AU, Miranda would be this type of femme fatale. She won't sleep with just anyone.

The double standard strikes again. Miranda would never be forgiven if she were that kind of character (just see the reactions in the Miranda thread last summer when Miranda's sexuality was a hot topic), but in James Bond it's almost a desirable atttribute.

Which is why I would absolutely love to see your scenario.


I guess I'm the only one without the DS then.

I don't like Bond precisely because of the man-whoring.

#51629
hot_heart

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Thing is, James Bond is a very different example. At worst, he is a relic from an older, less progressive time and, at best, male fantasy escapism.

He doesn't develop as a character, barring the OHMSS blip (and possibly the newer films, I've only seen Casino Royale), and operates in a sort of vaccuum. Notice how he never really works with another man of equal ability, there is always the 'Bond girl' instead.

Each story has its own rules or style so it can be hard to compare things like that.

Essentially, once again, it comes down to personal interpretation and whether you believe Miranda really did become attached enough that it altered her character in such ways, or whether she was willing to use whatever available method worked.

#51630
Caihn

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o Ventus wrote...

I guess I'm the only one without the DS then.

I don't like Bond precisely because of the man-whoring.


Well I'm not fan of this part of the character either.
This is completely ridiculous and sexist.

I can't think of a more unrealistic and ridiculous caricature of a spy than James Bond. Comparing Miranda to him would be an insult to Miranda.

Modifié par Yannkee, 27 mai 2012 - 07:39 .


#51631
Caihn

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Jebel Krong wrote...

which is driven by human sexual dimporphism and there's no changing that when the primary percentage of gamers are still male: promiscuity being desirable in males and not females.


I've never seen such opinions among Miranda fans.
But I'm not suprprised by this kind of arguments anymore.

#51632
Ieldra

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hot_heart wrote...
Essentially, once again, it comes down to personal interpretation and whether you believe Miranda really did become attached enough that it altered her character in such ways, or whether she was willing to use whatever available method worked.

Why can't it be both? I don't see why an emotional attachment to Shepard necessary prevents Miranda from being pragmatic in that way and use sex as a means to accomplish a mission. I can imagine a lot more undesirable methods to get information out of people. Why the hell is it acceptable that Miranda tortures people for information but not that she sleeps with them?

(Not that I particularly wish that she does that often. It's a matter of principle)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2012 - 07:50 .


#51633
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...
The double standard strikes again. Miranda would never be forgiven if she were that kind of character (just see the reactions in the Miranda thread last summer when Miranda's sexuality was a hot topic), but in James Bond it's almost a desirable atttribute.



It's undeniable that such a double standard exists.

That said, there's another tendency, when it comes to depictions of female sexuality, which is to portray women as either pure/virginal/good or promiscuous/temptress/bad. It's better that Miranda doesn't really fit either category.

It's possible that she was originally supposed to fit the second stereotype, more or less (at some point early in development), but the fact is she doesn't. She tries to convince Shepard, not seduce him. She cares enough about Jacob to keep a promise to him even when they're no longer together, etc.

Anyway, my point is: I'm wary of the whole "Miranda seduces someone to get the job done" idea mostly because it plays too much to the archetype (femme fatale), and not enough to the character. If anything, a lot of the time Miranda seems pretty oblivious to her "charms," so to speak, and behaves more like a scientist/administrator/XO than a temptress.

I'd argue that's one of the things that makes Miranda Miranda (rather than merely a riff on the femme fatale archetype).

Modifié par flemm, 27 mai 2012 - 07:56 .


#51634
jtav

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Just for the record I don't think Miranda would have a one night stand while in a serious relationship. She's very possessive of Shepard, and she seems to hold herself to the same high standard. Missions and the like are absolutely fair game, and if Shep has a problem with that, he shouldn't date a spy. But just needing release? No, not without prior agreement.

Now, out of a relationship? Frequent casual sex with trusted partners.

#51635
hot_heart

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In this case, it can't be both to the people who prefer to think differently. As some people have said, they might see that loyalty 'compromising' her principles or just a sign of development and attachment. Whether you see that as good or bad is up to you, and how you present it if writing along those lines. If it's not too outlandish, there's no real right or wrong.

In the same way, you can argue over the Collector Base dialogue but I figure people will hold different viewpoints from which it is difficult to persuade them. Makes for interesting discussion though.

And, if I recall, dialogue on Purgatory suggests that Miranda draws a line with regards to torture. In Veetor's case, maybe that degree of separation helps. Unless there's an example, I'm missing?

EDIT: Clarified my point in the original sentence in case it sounded a little blunt.

Modifié par hot_heart, 27 mai 2012 - 08:13 .


#51636
wright1978

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flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The double standard strikes again. Miranda would never be forgiven if she were that kind of character (just see the reactions in the Miranda thread last summer when Miranda's sexuality was a hot topic), but in James Bond it's almost a desirable atttribute.



It's undeniable that such a double standard exists.

That said, there's another tendency, when it comes to depictions of female sexuality, which is to portray women as either pure/virginal/good or promiscuous/temptress/bad. It's better that Miranda doesn't really fit either category.

It's possible that she was originally supposed to fit the second stereotype, more or less (at some point early in development), but the fact is she doesn't. She tries to convince Shepard, not seduce him. She cares enough about Jacob to keep a promise to him even when they're no longer together, etc.

Anyway, my point is: I'm wary of the whole "Miranda seduces someone to get the job done" idea mostly because it plays too much to the archetype (femme fatale), and not enough to the character. If anything, a lot of the time Miranda seems pretty oblivious to her "charms," so to speak, and behaves more like a scientist/administrator/XO than a temptress.

I'd argue that's one of the things that makes Miranda Miranda (rather than merely a riff on the femme fatale archetype).


Agree very much with you Flemm.

#51637
spirosz

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flemm wrote...

It's undeniable that such a double standard exists.

That said, there's another tendency, when it comes to depictions of female sexuality, which is to portray women as either pure/virginal/good or promiscuous/temptress/bad. It's better that Miranda doesn't really fit either category.

It's possible that she was originally supposed to fit the second stereotype, more or less (at some point early in development), but the fact is she doesn't. She tries to convince Shepard, not seduce him. She cares enough about Jacob to keep a promise to him even when they're no longer together, etc.

Anyway, my point is: I'm wary of the whole "Miranda seduces someone to get the job done" idea mostly because it plays too much to the archetype (femme fatale), and not enough to the character. If anything, a lot of the time Miranda seems pretty oblivious to her "charms," so to speak, and behaves more like a scientist/administrator/XO than a temptress.

I'd argue that's one of the things that makes Miranda Miranda (rather than merely a riff on the femme fatale archetype).


She knows her looks will gain her more attention and what does she do with it?  Backs it up with intellect and confidence and doesn't flaunt around just with her body.  I can definitely see why people think that she "seduces" to get her way, it's an obvious reaction when seeing a woman like Miranda, but she's one to out shine those rumours.  

What doesn't help are the "ass shots" - though, that has to do with the people writing the scenes/animations, etc, not really the writers IMO.  Again, most of us can see past that.  

Modifié par spiros9110, 27 mai 2012 - 08:10 .


#51638
jtav

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I tend to to play up the femme fatale aspect because 1) I like the type and 2) it allows me to rationalize the outfit at bit. Agreed that she seems a bit more steamroller than anything.

#51639
o Ventus

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spiros9110 wrote...

flemm wrote...

It's undeniable that such a double standard exists.

That said, there's another tendency, when it comes to depictions of female sexuality, which is to portray women as either pure/virginal/good or promiscuous/temptress/bad. It's better that Miranda doesn't really fit either category.

It's possible that she was originally supposed to fit the second stereotype, more or less (at some point early in development), but the fact is she doesn't. She tries to convince Shepard, not seduce him. She cares enough about Jacob to keep a promise to him even when they're no longer together, etc.

Anyway, my point is: I'm wary of the whole "Miranda seduces someone to get the job done" idea mostly because it plays too much to the archetype (femme fatale), and not enough to the character. If anything, a lot of the time Miranda seems pretty oblivious to her "charms," so to speak, and behaves more like a scientist/administrator/XO than a temptress.

I'd argue that's one of the things that makes Miranda Miranda (rather than merely a riff on the femme fatale archetype).


She knows her looks will gain her more attention and what does she do with it?  Backs it up with intellect and confidence and doesn't flaunt around just with her body.  I can definitely see why people think that she "seduces" to get her way, it's an obvious reaction when seeing a woman like Miranda, but she's one to out shine those rumours.  

What doesn't help are the "ass shots" - though, that has to do with the people writing the scenes/animations, etc, not really the writers IMO.  Again, most of us can see past that.  


Agreed.

Just my own opinion, but it's really refreshing to see a character subvert a trope that, at face value, makes them seem like they embody (femme fatale, in this case).

Modifié par o Ventus, 27 mai 2012 - 08:41 .


#51640
Aliqaiser

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My most challenging concept Art's to Date.

Thessia-
Image IPB

This is a much cosmetic version (just for fun)
Image IPB

And some Random IJUR-17 concept Art.

Image IPB

#51641
o Ventus

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I like the 3rd image.

I think the nebulae in #1-2 are a little off putting. At first I thought the city on Thessia was just floating out in space, disconnected from the planet. Just an astronomy nitpick, but normally a nebula wouldn't be that close to a planet outside its confines.

At least, I assume that's an up-close of a nebula, and not the sun. If it's the sun, then disregard this. The 2nd image blurs and distorts the object in the center of the large glow, making it appear to be a nebula.

Modifié par o Ventus, 27 mai 2012 - 08:54 .


#51642
yesikareyes

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@Ali

Nice one, man.

Anyway, I guess I'll go with Mr. JB's scenario but I'm still up for the Miranda is unfaithful challenge for a brain teaser. I always find it interesting how writers successfully tackle a character in a way that people aren't comfortable. I remember there are lots of fics where I thought I was going to hate it but it's so well written, I'm really impressed. But for now, I'm going to focus on my Miri/Liara/Mshep tragedy romance.

#51643
o Ventus

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yesikareyes wrote...

@Ali

Nice one, man.

Anyway, I guess I'll go with Mr. JB's scenario but I'm still up for the Miranda is unfaithful challenge for a brain teaser. I always find it interesting how writers successfully tackle a character in a way that people aren't comfortable. I remember there are lots of fics where I thought I was going to hate it but it's so well written, I'm really impressed. But for now, I'm going to focus on my Miri/Liara/Mshep tragedy romance.


Honestly, I would drop the unfaithful Miranda outline. It just doesn't fit her character or personality, for reasons that almost everyone has stated so far. Truth be told, Miranda is the last person that comes to my mind when I think "cheater".

Modifié par o Ventus, 27 mai 2012 - 09:06 .


#51644
yesikareyes

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Yeah, I'm just going with my love triangle fic. I will post it when I'm done!

#51645
flemm

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spiros9110 wrote...

What doesn't help are the "ass shots" - though, that has to do with the people writing the scenes/animations, etc, not really the writers IMO.  Again, most of us can see past that.  


While that's true, I also think it's interesting that there's that disconnect between the camera's fascination with her assets and Miranda's relative lack of interest in actually exploiting them to seduce anyone.

She knows she was designed to be seductive, but she's not really interested in that. Given the way her relationship with her father works, I think it's just part of the character that she tends to go against the grain of "creator intent," so to speak.

You often hear fans say things like that, i.e. "I feel like I am fighting the creators," "We love Miranda, but not for the reasons we were *supposed* to love her," "there is a disconnect between us and the writers," etc. 

Modifié par flemm, 27 mai 2012 - 09:26 .


#51646
hot_heart

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I don't think it would be out-of-character for Miranda to use sex to achieve a goal, if it were important enough.

Truth be told, I find the 'aiding Cerberus in attacking the Presidium' thing a touch more unpalatable. There could be reasons for and against, obviously, that's just how I see it.

#51647
Jebel Krong

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Yannkee wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

which is driven by human sexual dimporphism and there's no changing that when the primary percentage of gamers are still male: promiscuity being desirable in males and not females.


I've never seen such opinions among Miranda fans.
But I'm not suprprised by this kind of arguments anymore.


hmm i wasn't directly addressing miranda? anyway i should better have said certain cultures have fostered those views rather than imply it was behaviourally ingrained, which of course it's not, except by certain example (bond for one).

#51648
Babi_Siha

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Great work, Aliqaiser. =D I've said before but it's worth mentioning I'm really looking forward to the comic you guys are working for the fanbook group.

Yesika, please post your triangle fic as soon as you get a chapter done. I want to read some angst.

#51649
flemm

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Babi_Siha wrote...

Great work, Aliqaiser. =D 


Yeah, beautiful images. I don't really have much to add in terms of comments, but the third one in particular is amazing.

#51650
enayasoul

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flemm wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

Great work, Aliqaiser. =D 


Yeah, beautiful images. I don't really have much to add in terms of comments, but the third one in particular is amazing.


Yes beautiful art work, Aliqaser.  The third one is very beautiful.  Really, really, beautiful. :happy: