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[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...
it was funny I mean for somebody so Cerebus dedicated she also agreed , that destroying the base was the best option

That wasn't funny, that was out of character.

This is where you are wrong , she changed she evolved , by saving her sister from her father .
You changed the way she behaves .
The slowly shift from Ice Queen , to being human shines trough ..
And by giving Jacob the information about his father , is also one where she goes out of character ?

A character evolves never stays in the same role , like Jack Does , Grunt Does , Legion and Tali ..
Or are they all out of character suddenly ?

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
really can't see miranda going back to cerberus after the evenets of ME2 - she's not stupid.

Really? Whatever else Cerberus does, as of the end of ME2 they're still committed to the fight against the Reapers. That's something Miranda could identify with, especially if they're *still* the only ones not sticking their heads into the sand. 
Also consider that if you keep the base, Shepard doesn't break with Cerberus but only threatens to do that. So there won't even be a loyalty conflict.

All that will only change once it becomes known that Cerberus is working for the Reapers.

[Ieldra]

@Drake_Hound:
That's just it. You didn't, and she didn't. She was always protective of her sister and this is not the first time she saved Oriana from her father. The promise she made to Jacob is months or even years old. The only thing that undoubtedly changed about her is that she now trusts Shepard.

I also strongly object to the assumption that Miranda's reserve makes her somehow less than human. If I must say it until I'm blue in the face: being open and trusting is not a virtue, in fact, in her job it's more of a flaw. If she's going to keep her competence, she must also keep her reserve, if not necessarily around Shepard.  

[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
really can't see miranda going back to cerberus after the evenets of ME2 - she's not stupid.

Really? Whatever else Cerberus does, as of the end of ME2 they're still committed to the fight against the Reapers. That's something Miranda could identify with, especially if they're *still* the only ones not sticking their heads into the sand. 
Also consider that if you keep the base, Shepard doesn't break with Cerberus but only threatens to do that. So there won't even be a loyalty conflict.

All that will only change once it becomes known that Cerberus is working for the Reapers.

Eh I do hope you freed the little boy and didn´t let him in the machine in overlord ....
Sadly like the story unfolds , Cerberus is a bad guy ... rightfully so .
While in 2nd part , they might try to show you the good they do , sadly they needed Shepard to do it .
If they could have gotten the collectors base without Shepard , they would have done so right away .

But I am sorry for you but Miranda broke with Cerberus , and the base destruction was the right choice.
That you cannot accept that fine .
But all of Cerberus couldn´t deal with the collectors threat , But Shepard can , which side would Miranda choose ?
If she wants to continue fighting the reaper , if I go by your logic .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
really can't see miranda going back to cerberus after the evenets of ME2 - she's not stupid.

Really? Whatever else Cerberus does, as of the end of ME2 they're still committed to the fight against the Reapers. That's something Miranda could identify with, especially if they're *still* the only ones not sticking their heads into the sand. 
Also consider that if you keep the base, Shepard doesn't break with Cerberus but only threatens to do that. So there won't even be a loyalty conflict.

All that will only change once it becomes known that Cerberus is working for the Reapers.

oh c'mon: after being betrayed by TIM, not once but twice (assuming you took her to the collector ship, too)? the delivery of the lines on the collector station makes it clear that she's done with cerberus "or what you'll replace me next?" there's no way she'd have gone back to TIM under any circumstances. besides one of the things about being so smart and clever is that you can do things yourself - not follow like a sheep - there are plenty of ways she could "advance humanity" without being attached to Cerberus. i could see TIM taking her back, but without trust on either side, so what real use would each have for the other, then?

besides up to and including arrival - whenever you play it - she's on the Normandy, that's not much time to be doing anything else between then and ME3 (which is going to take some clever writing to convincingly make everyone disband. again. which i'm not sure will be done).

[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Drake_Hound:
That's just it. You didn't, and she didn't. She was always protective of her sister and this is not the first time she saved Oriana from her father. The promise she made to Jacob is months or even years old. The only thing that undoubtedly changed about her is that she now trusts Shepard.

I also strongly object to the assumption that Miranda's reserve makes her somehow less than human. If I must say it until I'm blue in the face: being open and trusting is not a virtue, in fact, in her job it's more of a flaw. If she's going to keep her competence, she must also keep her reserve, if not necessarily around Shepard.  

And what I tell you evolves in the game , what your tell me is your own hunches and thinking .
What I tell you is how character evolves during the gameplay .
What you tell me is what you think in your opnion and toughts how things suppose to work .

There is a big difference , cause I am not talking about what I am thinking about Miranda , I am just seeing it as how objectively , if you play the game trough shepard eyes , she changes while you as shepard do not change that much ...
You know why I love Miranda , cause being bad with her is easier to get to her heart or her bed, then being nice and all sweet.
That is really welldone , shows character instead of being all nice and sweet cause she predicts it all .
Being open and trusting is not a virtue , cause her Job is demanding her to be sneaky and spy for TIM .
That is one of the line you can question her about , and she won´t deny it .
TIM put Miranda there to keep a eye on Shepard .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...
it was funny I mean for somebody so Cerebus dedicated she also agreed , that destroying the base was the best option

That wasn't funny, that was out of character.

greed wasn't the motivation to destroy the base at all, indeed that would be an oxymoron. indeed you could see it as the most expedient solution to the problem.

Drake_Hound wrote...
This is where you are wrong , she changed she evolved , by saving her sister from her father .
You changed the way she behaves .
The slowly shift from Ice Queen , to being human shines trough ..
And by giving Jacob the information about his father , is also one where she goes out of character ?

A character evolves never stays in the same role , like Jack Does , Grunt Does , Legion and Tali ..
Or are they all out of character suddenly ?

she doesn't change that much through the game, and any evidence of any "softening" on a personal basis is only ever done in private (or one instance at the end of the LM).

[Drake_Hound]

Now when you meet a Alpha type like Miranda you assert authority , like IT is MY ship ....
So basically from there onward , I just play and I was suprised that path leads to much more contact with Miranda and openness then being , nice and agreeing with her .
Leads to much more sensible reactions , infact in my first play trough of ME2 without import .
I was really suprised that I gotten the relationship and loyalty mission right away , cause I dont trust her , she doesn´t trust me and by having a pitbull fight conversation it leads to more trust .

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...

Wheres the source on Miri resigning even if shes not there?

Personally I don't think Bioware will make different consequences in ME3 if Miranda was there or not during the last fight in the SM.
Also :
- she acts the same way when you go talk to her after the SM : "We had to do it. Taking down the Collectors was the right decision. The Illusive Man might not agree, but we had no choice."
- if you play Arrival after the SM and if you destroy the base, Hacket mentions that the Normandy is not a Cerberus ship anymore

And it will be easier, at the begining of ME3, to tell the players that Miranda resigned than telling those who had the resignation scene that it never happened.

btw, considering her behaviour if you keep the base ("Before we've started this mission, I never would have questioned our goals. I just hope we made the right choice. I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"), the comments of Shepard in LotSB about who Miranda trusts, the fact that a Shepard who romance her can tell Mordin "I believe Miranda has earned our trust" ... I think she won't be with Cerberus in ME3, whatever your decicion about the CB.

[Jebel Krong]

cr: guywithhair

[Ieldra]

Drake_Hound wrote...
And what I tell you evolves in the game , what your tell me is your own hunches and thinking .
What I tell you is how character evolves during the gameplay .
What you tell me is what you think in your opnion and toughts how things suppose to work .

Examples from the game:
(1) Miranda tells you she took Oriana from her father to protect her. i.e. she was always protective of her sister, it's nothing new.
(2) Miranda tells you in Jacobs LM debriefing that she was honoring an old promise. No new regard for Jacob's welfare here.
(3) In the second romance conversation, Miranda defends Cerberus and says that TIM is working for humanity's best interests. Unless you hurry to do Miranda's loyalty mission and do her romance conversations as early as possible this will usually happen *after* the Collector ship mission.
(4) On the Collector base, when Miranda says they can't go back for the crew's sake, she's putting the mission before the crew. No change here from Lazarus station, where she says the others are all expendable.
(5) She doesn't acknowledge that TIM betrayed them after the Collector ship. Even Jacob tacitly accepts that he didn't, and he's more distrustful of TIM than Miranda. I don't know how TIM's reasoning was intended to come across by the writers, but Miranda and Jacob appear to take it at face value.
(6) On the Reaper IFF mission, she recommends giving Legion to Cerberus for study.
(7) She kills Niket on her LM unless you intervene, though whether it's for the betrayal or because he's a loose end remains unresolved.
(8) She won't talk to Oriana without your intervention because that might adversely affect her safety (the mission comes before personal feelings)

So, I have every reason to think that she hasn't changed that much except with regard to Shepard, who she now trusts.

@Yannkee, Jebel:
I agree that Miranda will likely not be with Cerberus in ME3 whatever our decision about the CB might have been. But I believe that for reasons that have nothing to do with how Miranda acts in ME2. Her character development is not an indicator of it unless you take her to the Collector base and destroy it, making her resign. And regardless of her stance to Cerberus, there's every indication she still believes in the original agenda of advancing humanity.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[Ieldra]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
HURRY!!!! VOTE NOW!!!!
http://social.biowar...0&poll_id=22376

LOL.

It is not a foregone conclusion that I'd vote for Miranda in such a poll. In fact, I think that given Miranda's job, she should be more athletic and a little less curvy. I'd vote for Lady Hawke.

[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...
And what I tell you evolves in the game , what your tell me is your own hunches and thinking .
What I tell you is how character evolves during the gameplay .
What you tell me is what you think in your opnion and toughts how things suppose to work .

Examples from the game:
(1) Miranda tells you she took Oriana from her father to protect her. i.e. she was always protective of her sister, it's nothing new.
(2) Miranda tells you in Jacobs LM debriefing that she was honoring an old promise. No new regard for Jacob's welfare here.
(3) In the second romance conversation, Miranda defends Cerberus and says that TIM is working for humanity's best interests. Unless you hurry to do Miranda's loyalty mission and do her romance conversations as early as possible this will usually happen *after* the Collector ship mission.
(4) On the Collector base, when Miranda says they can't go back for the crew's sake, she's putting the mission before the crew. No change here from Lazarus station, where she says the others are all expendable.
(5) She doesn't acknowledge that TIM betrayed them after the Collector ship. Even Jacob tacitly accepts that he didn't, and he's more distrustful of TIM than Miranda. I don't know how TIM's reasoning was intended to come across by the writers, but Miranda and Jacob appear to take it at face value.
(6) On the Reaper IFF mission, she recommends giving Legion to Cerberus for study.

So, I have every reason to think that she hasn't changed that much except with regard to Shepard, who she now trusts.

Am doing this from my memory, so I could be wrong like with Shiala been 6 months ago since I touched the game.

1 Is just before the Loyalty mission , during the loyalty mission or after she explains why She took Oriana away from her father , reason is that she wants to prevent her from becoming like Her .
Shows understanding what she has become ,doesn´t wish that fate for Oriana .
If she was truely just a cerberus pawn , she would have indoctrinated Oriana into Cerberus ..  Or are my toughts wrong ?

2 She was honoring a old promise , but without TIM approval , She could have done it much earlier , it is interaction with Shepard or the upcoming suicide mission that made her comprimise herself , you can pick .
It is not the promise that she has to honor .

3 I remember that line was generic line , before even romance , was one of the pitbull lines , were you both argue back and forth , who is right or wrong , she still has trust in TIM vision or action , don´t forget she was TIM favorite till Shepard shows up , she explains that preromance descision when she had to think about committing .

Some where she explains ,she is envious of Shepard cause she is genetic engineered to be perfect , still Shepard with all his natural flaws , was a beter person then her .
Would somebody as cold and ruthless admit that ? (I cant quote her lines exactly from memory)

4 that is called tactical Wisdom and need to succeed , It standard military operation advice , that is why you have a XO who reminds you of options , but end deal it is Shepard decisions , slightly different when you first meet her.
And say it is my Ship , and she says something like for now or remember cerberus ship (can´t remember was something cranky)

5 that is correct , don´t forget she owes Cerberus a lot , it like saying to chinese people in china about tainem square , no matter how intelligent or well educated they are , they believed the lies the government gave them.
Cause of media blackout , to them it was just a student riot , and they attacked the military first .
Jacob is ex alliance black ops was already betrayed before , So offcourse he knows from experience a setup .

6 That is also correct ,same as giving grunt to cerberus , but in the end it is Shepard call .
And both TIM and Miranda accept his call . so if they wanted legion badly , they would have send it off right away .

5 and 6 you are correct , by then she would have changed , but again even Jacob is against reactivating Legion .
Infact almost everybody is , When you take Legion to Tali trial (that is funny ) the option is also there .
Even Legion himself said he beter stay on the ship , this is called illogical but bioware fun .
Those things yes you can punch holes into them and serve your case , but it is done for consitency even if it doesn´t make sense ...

What I look at is a bit like why Liara sold your body to the cerberus , how has Liara matured from ME1 .
Same way I view Miranda from the moment you first meet , till the end after the SM .
Same way you view betrayed by Ashley/Kaiden, after saving the galaxy , she should have known you by now .
In a sense the character progress and viewing it trough Shepard eyes , is the most important to me.
And Miranda from cold control freak to even if you don´t romance her but do the loyalty mission of saving Oriana.
Definetly made big strides towards becoming more human . the emails are fun , LoTSB messages about there transcripts are fun too .

That is my view how I percieved her , I can be wrong , but it is not inconsistency , aside from 5-6 .
Infact it called evolution trough experiences and interaction .

[wright1978]

I always felt Miranda's progression was pretty natural. She starts out fiercely loyal to TIM & cerberus and tries to rationalise and defend their actions even when evidence of their excesses appears. I felt there was a slow erosion of her devout trust while at the same time her belief/trust in Shepard grew. Then on the collector base she's placed in a position to have to make a difficult personal as to which to side with. I always feel the breaking point is that TIM mislead her as well as Shepard about the ultimate goal of the mission. To me it seems clear he was never interested in destroying the base & yet he had no faith in sharing that info with her.

[Ieldra]

@Drake_Hound:

Just one thing before I go to answer your comments:

I have never claimed that Miranda was 100% ruthless, nor that she was an 100% Cerberus pawn. We don't see it at the start of the game, but It's clear from her backstory that there is - and has always been in her personal history - more to her than that and that she's not as ruthless as TIM. That's the reason why I say she hasn't changed much in her general personality.

Also her pragmatism is mission-oriented. The mission comes before personal entanglements. Where there is no mission to fulfil, other personality aspects come to the fore without contradicting her pragmatism. 

Drake_Hound wrote...
1 Is just before the Loyalty mission , during the loyalty mission or after she explains why She took Oriana away from her father , reason is that she wants to prevent her from becoming like Her.
Shows understanding what she has become ,doesn´t wish that fate for Oriana .
If she was truely just a cerberus pawn , she would have indoctrinated Oriana into Cerberus ..  Or are my toughts wrong ?

Miranda took Oriana from her father because she wanted a normal life for Oriana. That was 18-19 years ago. My point was that Miranda didn't change in her regard for her sister's welfare between the start of ME2 and the end. This conversation is evidence of that. Her love and protectiveness of her sister has been a constant, apparently even beyond the scope of the game, for 19 years.

She was honoring a old promise , but without TIM approval , She could have done it much earlier , it is interaction with Shepard or the upcoming suicide mission that made her comprimise herself , you can pick .
It is not the promise that she has to honor.

She *did* it without TIM's approval. And whatever her promise entailed, she couldn't have done exactly what she did earlier since the signal from the Hugo Gernsback was new.

3 I remember that line was generic line , before even romance , was one of the pitbull lines , were you both argue back and forth , who is right or wrong , she still has trust in TIM vision or action , don´t forget she was TIM favorite till Shepard shows up , she explains that preromance descision when she had to think about committing.

There are several conversations where Cerberus comes up. The one I was talking about was the romance conversation after the loyalty mission debriefing, the one where you can kiss her. Where she accepts that Pragia was a mistake, but defends all other Cerberus actions you can mention.

Some where she explains ,she is envious of Shepard cause she is genetic engineered to be perfect , still Shepard with all his natural flaws , was a beter person then her .
Would somebody as cold and ruthless admit that ? (I cant quote her lines exactly from memory)

No, she doesn't say Shepard is a better person. She says she doesn't have his fire, the ability to make people follow him "into hell itself". And then proceeds to say that from his genetic record Shepard is close to being a "perfect human specimen" himself if you take the "You're jealous" option.
Again, my point was that her general personality traits don't change that much in the course of ME2 - except in how much she trusts Shepard. This is clearly an indication of the latter.

4 that is called tactical Wisdom and need to succeed , It standard military operation advice , that is why you have a XO who reminds you of options , but end deal it is Shepard decisions , slightly different when you first meet her. And say it is my Ship , and she says something like for now or remember cerberus ship (can´t remember was something cranky)

Of course it's tactical thinking. My point is again that not much has changed from her earlier attitude. She puts the tactical necessity before the safety of the crew  - like she always did. That's a pragmatic attitude. In this case, it is also a very, very, *very* appropriate attitude to take and I certainly hope she won't lose that to "character development" in ME3.

5 that is correct , don´t forget she owes Cerberus a lot , it like saying to chinese people in china about tainem square , no matter how intelligent or well educated they are , they believed the lies the government gave them.
Cause of media blackout , to them it was just a student riot , and they attacked the military first .
Jacob is ex alliance black ops was already betrayed before , So offcourse he knows from experience a setup.

The thing is: he doesn't. Both of them consider the possibility and then discount it. Any further reactions to that event are pure speculation. That she refused to consider TIM's betrayal because she owes him might be plausible speculation, but Jacob has no such excuse. Because he accepts that TIM hasn't betrayed them, I tend to think TIM's reasoning was meant to be taken at face value.

6 That is also correct ,same as giving grunt to cerberus , but in the end it is Shepard call .
And both TIM and Miranda accept his call . so if they wanted legion badly , they would have send it off right away.

Of course it's Shepard's call. With TIM's approval, Miranda explicitly says that she'll follow Shepard's commands somewhere around Freedom's Progress. My point was again that the recommendation to give Legion to Cerberus shows that she's still a Cerberus operative and that her loyalty hasn't moved away from them. 

What I look at is a bit like why Liara sold your body to the cerberus , how has Liara matured from ME1 .
Same way I view Miranda from the moment you first meet , till the end after the SM.

It's very different. Liara *has* changed between ME1 and ME2, there's no doubt of it.

With Miranda, it's not so much that she has changed but rather that we are learning more and more of her. She's always been protective of her sister, but we don't know that until she starts talking about her loyalty mission. She's always put a high value in loyalty, but we don't know that when we meet her first and see her kill Wilson. She's not standoffish to everyone - she's had an affair with Jacob - but we only hear that later. When we take her to Pragia, its clear that she disapproves and we don't get the impression that she would've approved of it at any time in her life. It's not so much character development on her part than character exploration on our part.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:25 .

[Caihn]

wright1978 wrote...

I always felt Miranda's progression was pretty natural. She starts out fiercely loyal to TIM & cerberus and tries to rationalise and defend their actions even when evidence of their excesses appears. I felt there was a slow erosion of her devout trust while at the same time her belief/trust in Shepard grew. Then on the collector base she's placed in a position to have to make a difficult personal as to which to side with. I always feel the breaking point is that TIM mislead her as well as Shepard about the ultimate goal of the mission. To me it seems clear he was never interested in destroying the base & yet he had no faith in sharing that info with her.

I agree.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
I always feel the breaking point is that TIM mislead her as well as Shepard about the ultimate goal of the mission. To me it seems clear he was never interested in destroying the base & yet he had no faith in sharing that info with her.

He did not mislead. The stated goal was never to destroy the base, but to stop the Collectors from abducting more human colonies. That that entails destroying their base completely does not follow, that's just Shepard's standard operating procedure.
Stopping the Collectors is a goal very compatible with "getting your hands on some Reaper technology to study". I recall that in my first game of ME2 that became my secondary goal as soon as I became aware of the primary goal to stop the Collectors. From that point I expected to get some Reaper technology in the end to study and to use as evidence for the Council and the Alliance.

And again, Miranda thinks strategically throughout the game. The mission comes first. That she ceases to do so, that she doesn't even consider it, and insteads makes a recommendation based on sentimentality on the base is exactly why I say it is an out of character moment.

Back to the point: because TIM did not mislead, I see no reason for Miranda to be disenchanted with him. I can see some long-term fallout in her thinking from Pragia and the Collector ship, but not from the base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:42 .

[wright1978]

Yes it was to stop Collectors and at no time was tech retrieval even mentioned as secondary goal. If your Shepard thinks it is important they have the option to save the base.

Also imo it's not sentimentality but a trust issue. The TIM doesn't even have the faith in her to brief her in advance that he might want to salvage the collector technology He jumps in last minute and tries ambush tactics on Miranda and Shephard. He puts her in an impossible position and she backs Shepard someone who's judgement she has come to value highly.

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...
Miranda is not silly damsel, who's head should be turned over night. She does change a bit on my playthrough, but she's still Miranda. She does what needs to be done, if no other option is given. Paragon Shepard, would get himself killed before using her methods. So of course, they're going to clash.  She'd have to change way too much to fit Paragon Shepard. Paragade would work, I think Miri on my playthrough is currently Paragade with emphasis on the ade.

Even those two might clash now and then, but yeah. Your knight in shining armour types just won't cut it in that relationship. 

I also play Paragade Shepard and I think he fits Miranda perfectly.
But I also liked to play a Paragon Shepard at the begining of ME2, who becomes more renegade especially because of Miranda's influence. It's fun because first they have very different opinions, and at the end they are the perfect Paragade couple

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:58 .

[wright1978]

Agree completely Yannkee. My original ME1 Shepard was a naive little alliance Paragon. In the brave new world of ME2 thanks to Miranda's influence he became a paragade.

[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
I always feel the breaking point is that TIM mislead her as well as Shepard about the ultimate goal of the mission. To me it seems clear he was never interested in destroying the base & yet he had no faith in sharing that info with her.

He did not mislead. The stated goal was never to destroy the base, but to stop the Collectors from abducting more human colonies. That that entails destroying their base completely does not follow, that's just Shepard's standard operating procedure.
Stopping the Collectors is a goal very compatible with "getting your hands on some Reaper technology to study". I recall that in my first game of ME2 that became my secondary goal as soon as I became aware of the primary goal to stop the Collectors. From that point I expected to get some Reaper technology in the end to study and to use as evidence for the Council and the Alliance.

And again, Miranda thinks strategically throughout the game. The mission comes first. That she ceases to do so, that she doesn't even consider it, and insteads makes a recommendation based on sentimentality on the base is exactly why I say it is an out of character moment.

Back to the point: because TIM did not mislead, I see no reason for Miranda to be disenchanted with him. I can see some long-term fallout in her thinking from Pragia and the Collector ship, but not from the base.

OK now I understand you , but sadly I disagree , Sorry it is like warmovies or wartime story , when a hotshot new officer is in charge , he follows standard procedures , lets take example Bands of Brothers , the last patrol .
Where Winter just fake a report instead of needless send his men to die .
And Winter always tries to achieve objectives , This as you grow more and more accustomed to people you serve with , the loyalty towards the higher up shifts from them towards the men in the field .

So in that point you see Miranda , Doesn´t care anymore about TIM her loyalty like all others lies with Shepard .
Shepard feels the same way about his squad .
So I guess you thesis about Miranda Loyalty towards Ceberus didn´t take that into account .
The moment she gotten closer to Shepard , was the moment she stopped seeing him as objects to be sacrificed , even if nearing the collectors base , she said we are all expandable .

I didn´t find it out of character when she had to choose side in the end , even as none LI 
And yes I made a lot more different choices , like you are jealous and other stuff that suppose to be bad .
But infact gotten me what i tought is a more natural response ...
Since my Shepard never trusted Cerberus , Especially since the attrocity of ME1 ..

The collector base destruction, was cause it is the humane thing to do ,sorry you just witness how they suck life out of a person in a pod , to construct a giant human reaper ... you still want that technology to excist .
How many people died trying to make that thing ?
If there is humanity in people left , they wouldn´t want to use that technology .
But that is another topic talked to dead already on multiple forums and multiple occasions .

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
Yes it was to stop Collectors and at no time was tech retrieval even mentioned as secondary goal. If your Shepard thinks it is important they have the option to save the base.

Also imo it's not sentimentality but a trust issue. The TIM doesn't even have the faith in her to brief her in advance that he might want to salvage the collector technology He jumps in last minute and tries ambush tactics on Miranda and Shephard. He puts her in an impossible position and she backs Shepard someone who's judgement she has come to value highly.

TIM says he only became aware of the possibility to kill all the Collectors but keep the base intact after getting the schematics from EDI. That appears very plausible to me. Before you go through the O4-relay, you don't even know that it's a space station and not a regular planet. Mordin considers the possibility after Horizon, but nobody knows. Shepard couldn't have hoped to destroy a "homeworld", could he? 

And.....arguably it is Shepard who puts Miranda in an impossible situation by insisting to destroy the base after TIM's suggestion to keep it. At the very least, Shepard is as much culpable as TIM.

[Caihn]

wright1978 wrote...

Agree completely Yannkee. My original ME1 Shepard was a naive little alliance Paragon. In the brave new world of ME2 thanks to Miranda's influence he became a paragade.

Yeah I don't think I have a pure Paragon save to import in ME3, I think they all end Paragade.

Also my Shepards don't trust the Alliance more than Cerberus at the end of ME2. Too bad we won't be able to play a freelance Shepard in ME3, with Miranda as XO.

[Ieldra]

Drake_Hound wrote...
OK now I understand you , but sadly I disagree , Sorry it is like warmovies or wartime story , when a hotshot new officer is in charge , he follows standard procedures , lets take example Bands of Brothers , the last patrol .
Where Winter just fake a report instead of needless send his men to die .
And Winter always tries to achieve objectives , This as you grow more and more accustomed to people you serve with , the loyalty towards the higher up shifts from them towards the men in the field .

So in that point you see Miranda , Doesn´t care anymore about TIM her loyalty like all others lies with Shepard .
Shepard feels the same way about his squad .
So I guess you thesis about Miranda Loyalty towards Ceberus didn´t take that into account .

I don't take that into account because there is no hint that this is what happens. In fact, Miranda was also never uncaring about her subordinates, as evidenced by the fact that she relocates a crew members' family to get them out of the way of a possible Collector attack. And the SR2 crew trusts her. If she sacrifices people, it's not because she doesn't care, but because she thinks there is no other way. That's what many critics of her and of her pragmatism (and a Renegade-ish mindset in general) don't get. She's not callous and she's never been. She just thinks tactically. Miranda would never let her subordinates die needlessly. Not at the start of the game and not at the end. And we can't afford to lose against the Reapers.

The flaw inherent in most criticism of Miranda's pragmatism is thinking that if you have empathy for someone, you cannot let something bad happen to them. Well, war isn't like that, it isn't considerate of your empathy. If you're a commander and you want to win, you must put people at risk. Sometimes you must send them into almost certain death. In the real world, military commanders make projections of casualties for their scenarios. They're not less human for that. They have no other alternative - except to lose.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[Drake_Hound]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...
OK now I understand you , but sadly I disagree , Sorry it is like warmovies or wartime story , when a hotshot new officer is in charge , he follows standard procedures , lets take example Bands of Brothers , the last patrol .
Where Winter just fake a report instead of needless send his men to die .
And Winter always tries to achieve objectives , This as you grow more and more accustomed to people you serve with , the loyalty towards the higher up shifts from them towards the men in the field .

So in that point you see Miranda , Doesn´t care anymore about TIM her loyalty like all others lies with Shepard .
Shepard feels the same way about his squad .
So I guess you thesis about Miranda Loyalty towards Ceberus didn´t take that into account .

I don't take that into account because there is no hint that this is what happens. In fact, Miranda was also never uncaring about her subordinates, as evidenced by the fact that she relocates a crew members' family to get them out of the way of a possible Collector attack. And the SR2 crew trusts her. If she sacrifices people, it's not because she doesn't care, but because she thinks there is no other way. That's what many critics of her and of her pragmatism don't get. She's not callous and she's never been. She just thinks tactically. Miranda would never let her subordinates die needlessly. Not at the start of the game and not at the end.

The flaw inherent in most criticism of Miranda's pragmatism is thinking that if you have empathy for someone, you cannot let something bad happen to them. Well, war isn't like that, it isn't considerate of your empathy. If you're a commander and you want to win, you must put people at risk. Sometimes you must send them into almost certain death. In the real world, military commanders make projections of casualties for their scenarios. They're not less human for that. They have no other alternative - except to lose.

This different when you are behind the field or are in the field , sacrifices has to be made , but you never loses sight of the cost , The people on the top are reminded of that nowadays thanks god .
So arm chair general doesn´t happen much anymore , lets toss in 1000 man into a **** hole to get 5000 kills.
Sorry while orders are being carried out , doesn´t mean the men will recklessly charge headlong into death anymore.
Consider this, unlike WW1 and WW2 , which was war on a massive scale full countries mobilised .
You are talking about theatre of operations , you send special forces to certain death operations , never the grunts.
Even then the special forces , will withdraw if the objective is impossible to be completed , if the objective can be completed with heavy losses , they will do it , but not when objective cannot be completed .
Back to the whole subject of communication .

I do have empathy , just as I understand your reasoning about why Miranda is still Cerberus loyalty bound .
In your eyes she still is cerberus cause in your reasoning or gameplay , you subconsiously or confidently decided to choose that option .
So In your eyes TIM never did anything wrong to Miranda , that is correct , so Miranda never lost major trust in TIM .
That is the whole underlaying of this discussion the rest is moot and build to defend that hypothesis .

But what if Miranda shifted her trust towards Shepard , that trust is greater then towards TIM .
Since you cannot deny that part , might that trust be, cause shepard teaches her to be more humane .
Cause her Sister Oriana , agrees with Shepard , since Oriana is also her , her logical reasons cannot be wrong either , who knows what drives Miranda to choose Shepard over TIM aside from the romance option.
But the fact is that She did Choose Shepard over TIM .