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[jtav]

And the fact that even non-fans are astonished she didn't have more to do with Cerberus.

[jtav]

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

[Vertigo_1]

MisterJB wrote...

Apparently, Miranda learned just what kind of work Cerberus was doing on Sanctuary; death camp comes to mind; and decided to shut that little piece of Hell down.
This is, sadly, contradicted by the dialogue Miranda has on Sanctuary itself that suggests she went there for Oriana and only decided to destroy the place once she saw in person what Cerberus was doing.

Arrrrgh! I'm so close to hating Oriana, she is bloody useless if Miranda is alive! As if the betrayal of what she used to stand for is not a good enough reason for Miranda to attack Sanctuary.

I think it was more of Oriana was a priority ("I can't think straight..") and then when she saw the horrors of the place, which were presented poorly to the player BTW, she says she couldn't leave the place as is (again this could have been worked on IMO)

Thing I found odd is that when you start Sanctuary you hear Oriana warning about that place...but later on it's Miranda you hear doing the warnings, even the one at the end.  I'm thinking it might just be developer lazyness (or again mission was rushed) but it was a little odd.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

Well I think it was more because Oriana had plot armor so that's Miranda's replacement there.  No need to come up with a new replacement (like w/ Jacob).  That and people liked her LM in ME2 added to that.

There's also the rush job they did with her mission (LM 2.0 w/ a poor standoff with Henry Lawson)

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

I think she gets more content as a result of her poster child status as of ME2 and her reasonably well known voice actress. I think if this was the story they always planned she might have had a more senior writer. Weekes spoke of the squaddie battles and i haven't heard a single dev say how much they love Miranda. So i put 2 and 2 together and get 4. Maybe that's wrong.

[ThomGau]

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

You know, it's rather astonishing how they completely failed to give us what we wanted. I'd almost conclude they wanted to turn us from the character.

It's all the more astonishing when you sit back and realize just how little we actually asked for.

Sometimes I get the rather amusing yet irritating thought of the BW team stating this about Miranda (or even ME3 as a whole) : "Mmm so this is what they want... Let's do the opposite! :O"

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

That story is fine as an idea, they just butchered the execution.

Granted, they did the same thing with the tech singularity, among other things.

[dtrain24]

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

Depending on the player, she got that with Shepard.

Modifié par dtrain24, 03 juin 2012 - 09:48 .

[dtrain24]

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

That story is fine as an idea, they just butchered the execution.

Granted, they did the same thing with the tech singularity, among other things.

The thing they screwed the pooch on was that they forgot the other half of Miranda's storyline, the Cerberus plot. If they added that in, we would all be praising the Miranda-Oriana line.
We just want Miranda to be that badass from Mass Effect 2 who says how much she doesn't like Cerberus now, and wants to aid in taking them down. I'm one of those people.

[Vertigo_1]

dtrain24 wrote...
Okay, fair enough.
I just thought the "LOL wut" was uncalled for. Thing is, I wouldn't be making the statement if it wasn't true. But I'm also going to rely on my fellow officers to help push the project forward. I'll admit I maybe got a bit mad, but what you did was also a bit uncalled for.
Also, adding people on Skype then deleting them 2 minuets later to mess with them?
I just didn't like the sign of disrespect in front of the whole board, so I snapped a bit.
But I'd be willing to call a truce and dump the water under the bridge if you are. I'd still be willing to work out a friendship if you are, as well. Your call. Once again, I apologize if you can return it.

Bolded: Assumptions don't help!
And I already said why I used those words.  It wasn't meant to be offensive.  What more do you want?

And I'd rather continue this via twitter or PM here.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 03 juin 2012 - 10:30 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Miranda actually gets a fair bit of content. I suspect Casey/Mac/Jay wanted to tell the story that we didn't want to hear: Miranda redeemed by love of her sister. They've been on that path since LOTSB. Tragic Miranda who really only wanted to be loved.

The only thing is that there's nothing that suggests that Mranda ever needed to be "redeemed" heck, if you didn't play ME2 or pay much attention to the first conversation with her in ME3 you wouldn't have any clue that she used to work for Cerberus.

That and there's the whole Cerberus arc that goes nowhere and does nothing.

[Vertigo_1]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The only thing is that there's nothing that suggests that Mranda ever needed to be "redeemed" heck, if you didn't play ME2 or pay much attention to the first conversation with her in ME3 you wouldn't have any clue that she used to work for Cerberus.

That and there's the whole Cerberus arc that goes nowhere and does nothing.

I think that's why they have a voiced Codex entry on her and not on anyone else from ME2 aside from Jacob (I think)
EDIT: Just checked, they do have Mordin in there too.

The challenges of pleasing old and new comers to the series perhaps?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[Nightwriter]

Miranda does not get a fair bit of content. There is little that is fair about what the ME2 cast got. The truth is that Miranda got the biggest crumb.

[dtrain24]

wright1978 wrote...

I think she gets more content as a result of her poster child status as of ME2 and her reasonably well known voice actress. I think if this was the story they always planned she might have had a more senior writer. Weekes spoke of the squaddie battles and i haven't heard a single dev say how much they love Miranda. So i put 2 and 2 together and get 4. Maybe that's wrong.

Hey Wright, random question, but your name doesn't reference David Wright of the New York Mets, does it?

She had a lot of content in ME2, yeah. She was a poster character for sure, being on the cover and all. But I think she got blatantly shelved in ME3. She went from uber important to recurring character.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ME2 defines her character. That's why we still romance her. ME3 hasn't managed to destroy it, in spite of the writers' effort.

In a sense, ME3 has defined her character even further imo, which is partly why it doesn't bother me now as much as it did initially. Because it's even clearer now, I think, what the character is really about than it was previously.

Miranda is about the future of humanity, the possibility of human progress, including the ambitions, fears, insecurities and potential problems inherent in that idea.

Even when the writers are running from that idea, or attempting to eliminate it, it can't really be separated from the character. If anything, I think that's what ME3 establishes.

Modifié par flemm, 04 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@ Vertigo

The only thing with that is if their trying to go after the whole COD/Gears of War type of player what makes them think that they'll actually listen to/read a Codex entry?

ME3 really marks the first time a Bioware game has introduced characters that I don't really care about. EDI acting as the ship's AI was all well and good but giving her a body really didn't seem neccesary. All we get from Vega is that he's a soldier, there's nothing else there and no amount of comics and movie tie-ins can fix the fact that we get next to no interaction with him.

ME2 on the other hand really felt like a lead-up to this awesome showdown between the Reapers and Shepard's squad. We've got some of the best and brightest the galaxy has to offer on the Suicide Squad and we certainly have room for them onboard the Normandy, but the whole "they might be dead" thing really limits what the writers could do with them in ME3.

What would have been neat is if they kept the "build your team" mechanic from ME2 using a combination of squadmates from ME1 and 2. Shepard has six squad slots to work with, so when you encounter a character like Garrus, Miranda, the VS, etc you can extend the offer to have them join the squad or have them become a war asset. Having a squad that could be different in each playthough would improve the game's replayability but it would be pretty resource intensive to do.

(off topic) Cool Adam Jensen avatar.

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think that's why they have a voiced Codex entry on her and not on anyone else from ME2 aside from Jacob (I think)
EDIT: Just checked, they do have Mordin in there too.

Re: the voiced codex entries, I think those are also the 3 ME2 characters who appear in non-imports. So, I guess maybe that's why they have the voiced codex entries (players importing games don't need to be introduced to the characters, really).

[Vertigo_1]

flemm wrote...
Re: the voiced codex entries, I think those are also the 3 ME2 characters who appear in non-imports. So, I guess maybe that's why they have the voiced codex entries (players importing games don't need to be introduced to the characters, really).

Wait, jacob appears in non imports? That's news to me, haha

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ Vertigo

The only thing with that is if their trying to go after the whole COD/Gears of War type of player what makes them think that they'll actually listen to/read a Codex entry?

I was thinking it's better to have it being read to you (primary codex) than reading it yourself (secondary codex)

Dr. Doctor wrote...
ME3 really marks the first time a Bioware game has introduced characters that I don't really care about. EDI acting as the ship's AI was all well and good but giving her a body really didn't seem neccesary. All we get from Vega is that he's a soldier, there's nothing else there and no amount of comics and movie tie-ins can fix the fact that we get next to no interaction with him.

But, he likes dinosaurs! That's important to know! But yes he could have used some more work,  his comics are OK.  I heard the Homeworld one for him wasn't that great.  As for EDI I think they went that way because of the underlying theme in ME3, synthetics vs Organics so they created her to bring the issue 'home' to the player (you get to chat with her on that a lot)  That and you need tech skills if Garrus and Kaidan are dead!

Dr. Doctor wrote...
ME2 on the other hand really felt like a lead-up to this awesome showdown between the Reapers and Shepard's squad. We've got some of the best and brightest the galaxy has to offer on the Suicide Squad and we certainly have room for them onboard the Normandy, but the whole "they might be dead" thing really limits what the writers could do with them in ME3.

Yep, that killed it really, though if they had more time they could have worked on them all (especially refined Miranda's dialog some more)

Dr. Doctor wrote...
What would have been neat is if they kept the "build your team" mechanic from ME2 using a combination of squadmates from ME1 and 2. Shepard has six squad slots to work with, so when you encounter a character like Garrus, Miranda, the VS, etc you can extend the offer to have them join the squad or have them become a war asset. Having a squad that could be different in each playthough would improve the game's replayability but it would be pretty resource intensive to do.

They mentioned at PAX how complicated the Normandy became with the squadmates and crew moving around and chatting.  So I'd have to say it would be really tough and as you said resource intensive.  Though I've always thought it would be cool to have Miranda chatting with others, wonder what she'd say to Mordin, Liara, Joker, VS, Jack

Dr. Doctor wrote...
(off topic) Cool Adam Jensen avatar.

Thanks!

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 juin 2012 - 03:36 .

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
Wait, jacob appears in non imports? That's news to me, haha

I think we ascertained at one point that it was those three, yeah.

[Dr. Doctor]

Before one of the patches I had Jacob come back from the dead in one import. Apparently he's not big on forcing this whole "death is final" thing.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...
So i put 2 and 2 together and get 4. Maybe that's wrong.

That's probably right. I think what we have is basically the minimum they felt they could get away with + a rushed attempt to adjust it when the leak happened.

In terms of amount and position in the game, it's respectable even under those conditions, so, if somebody with influence had been pushing for it to be done right, it could easily have been great. Too often we focus on what fans want. But it's what the devs themselves want that comes first.

I think that was actually detrimental to ME3, because it's one of the reasons we ended up with a pretty boring squad. All of the characters are sort of... likable enough, but it's a bland group overall.

Modifié par flemm, 04 juin 2012 - 04:59 .

[kookie28]

Nightwriter wrote...

Miranda does not get a fair bit of content. There is little that is fair about what the ME2 cast got. The truth is that Miranda got the biggest crumb.

I think that's the best way anyone could put it.

[enayasoul]

I want more than crumbs for Miranda and Shepard. Where's the damn romance?

[Ieldra]

o Ventus wrote...
Look at the bright side. At least you found someone on the Normandy to give a damn about.

Whenever I complete a mission, it feels like I'm surrounded by people I despise.

Not quite as bad for me. I like Samantha, EDI and Javik, and Garrus and Joker have a few really good lines as well. But the gulf between my appreciation for them and for Miranda is still as wide as the void between galactic superclusters.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
So i put 2 and 2 together and get 4. Maybe that's wrong.

That's probably right. I think what we have is basically the minimum they felt they could get away with + a rushed attempt to adjust it when the leak happened.

In terms of amount and position in the game, it's respectable even under those conditions, so, if somebody with influence had been pushing for it to be done right, it could easily have been great. Too often we focus on what fans want. But it's what the devs themselves want that comes first.

I think that was actually detrimental to ME3, because it's one of the reasons we ended up with a pretty boring squad. All of the characters are sort of... likable enough, but it's a bland group overall.

My issue with squad is its lack of character diversity. In ME2 i had my go to guys in each playthrough that suited that particular shep's character. In ME3 there's not enough diversity, too much blandness on squad and worse unfortunately Shep has been canoned into being bland too. So when i pick my squad it was pretty much Javik(completely non bland in your face prothean) that fits theshep i had for 2 games & anybody else except james(who has Jacob rifle polishing job)


p.s drain24, nope. don't know who that wright is as i come from Ireland where baseball is that rather odd offshoot of cricket that we can't quite understand.

Modifié par wright1978, 04 juin 2012 - 10:02 .