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[Babi_Siha]

Late on the conversation, but I would love if we could take Cerberus' side in ME3 or at the very least tell the Alliance to go to hell.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 09 juin 2012 - 11:12 .

[lillitheris]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Late on the conversation, but I would love if we could take Cerberus' side in ME3 or at the very least tell the Alliance to go to hell.

Really? Disregarding whether it makes sense that they’re (unwittingly) working to sabotage efforts to beat the Reapers — this is a ploy the Reapers have used successfully in the past — they clearly are.

Role-playing-wise I can see wanting to go with that option, but I just don’t see any scenario where that leads to anything but defeat?

[Babi_Siha]

lillitheris wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

Late on the conversation, but I would love if we could take Cerberus' side in ME3 or at the very least tell the Alliance to go to hell.

Really? Disregarding whether it makes sense that they’re (unwittingly) working to sabotage efforts to beat the Reapers — this is a ploy the Reapers have used successfully in the past — they clearly are.

Role-playing-wise I can see wanting to go with that option, but I just don’t see any scenario where that leads to anything but defeat?

But I am talking RPG wise. I'd love to have the choice to take sides or remain neutral, that would add a lot replay value to the game. I'm making a renegade/ruthless FemShepard (Hale rules as renegade) and that Shepard wouldn't think twice about joining Cerberus after the events of Arrival. And while it's true that they are working to control the reapers instead of destroying them, my renegade FemShep would feel truly betrayed after Arrival and considering the treatment she received from the Alliance when she got back from the dead, after they made a joke out of her denying the existence of the reapers it would be a no brainer, I'd switch sides too. However, I can't see how we could win in that scenario either, doesn't mean I wouldn't be curious to see it through

But my paragon Shepard, like I said, would tell Anderson and Hackett to go to hell and fight the Reapers on his own, he is still a spectre so that would work.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 09 juin 2012 - 11:23 .

[jtav]

If it were me, I'd have the player working for Liara in her capacity of Shadow Broker. You'd have long time agents like Feron, former Alliance like James, and fugitive Cerberus like Miranda, on your squad. Perfect to emphasize how you need to save everyone. What infuriates me is not so much that we work for the Alliance as that the game seems to have forgotten we could be pretty pro-Cerberus/anti-Alliance in ME2. At least give me the option to be rude a few times.

[lillitheris]

Babi_Siha wrote...

However, I can't see how we could win in that scenario either, doesn't mean I wouldn't be curious to see it through

Yeah…unfortunately for video games elaborate development toward failure is usually not feasible. One of the simplest missed opportunities they had in ME3, though, was not implementing some kind of a proper failure ending — real cinematics of the Reapers marching over everyone, rebuilding the Citadel, and then finally retreating. Then maybe toss in Liara’s time capsule with some new aliens from the next cycle (EMS-dependently).

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

If it were me, I'd have the player working for Liara in her capacity of Shadow Broker. You'd have long time agents like Feron, former Alliance like James, and fugitive Cerberus like Miranda, on your squad. Perfect to emphasize how you need to save everyone. What infuriates me is not so much that we work for the Alliance as that the game seems to have forgotten we could be pretty pro-Cerberus/anti-Alliance in ME2. At least give me the option to be rude a few times.

Yeah exactly that. I want my ability to be rude/abbrasive/reluctantly working with the Alliance but ME3 they decided player characterisation though dialogue choice was not allowed anymore.

[hot_heart]

I think, as has been said before, it would have been interesting if Cerberus and the Alliance offered two separate 'paths' towards a similar goal (kinda like The Witcher games, with even a more neutral option) in a sort of Renegade/Paragon dichotomy. That would have required a lot more planning and development though.

Also, I think an ending like you suggested, lillitheris, mixed with the final scene of Blackadder Goes Forth would've been really moving actually. Friends charging in slow-motion towards their death, with that final shot of the poppy fields.
If you've never seen it
http://www.youtube.c...lUmgYGxLM#t=99s
Interesting story is that scene was originally a complete mess with them all falling down, with some poorly-acted deaths. None of the cast or crew were happy with it. Then the editors had the idea of slowing it down, adding in the music and inserting that final shot with birdsong on the soundtrack. A little tweaking really can improve things!

EDIT: Oh, in regards to being rude towards the Alliance. It may have been a gut response but I always wrote it off as Shepard putting the mission above everything else. He's trying to unite races and be as diplomatic as possible, not fracture relationships among his squad. Which, in my story, was part of my reasoning on (read: excuse for) why Miranda felt she should steer clear.

Modifié par hot_heart, 09 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[Ieldra]

With regard to the Alliance:

I like Hackett's mindset. Hackett's the one who has no problems working with Cerberus if necessary, and he was the one who sent Shepard on the "The Negotiation" mission in ME1. I would like to say a few rude things to the more by-the-book figures in the Alliance and challenge them to adopt the necessary pragmatism necessary to win this war.

On the Cerberus side, I'd like to get the opportunity to persuade some prominent Cerberus figures to "defect" by telling them I agree with the original agenda as written in the Cerberus manifesto, but that TIM indoctrinating his own people seems more like a betrayal of humanity.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

With regard to the Alliance:

I like Hackett's mindset. Hackett's the one who has no problems working with Cerberus if necessary, and he was the one who sent Shepard on the "The Negotiation" mission in ME1. I would like to say a few rude things to the more by-the-book figures in the Alliance and challenge them to adopt the necessary pragmatism necessary to win this war.

On the Cerberus side, I'd like to get the opportunity to persuade some prominent Cerberus figures to "defect" by telling them I agree with the original agenda as written in the Cerberus manifesto, but that TIM indoctrinating his own people seems more like a betrayal of humanity.

Defect to the alliance, no. I'd definitely be in support of getting prominent cerberus figures to split off and form a new organisation under the leadership of the wonderul Ms Lawson to follow the orginal Cerberus manifesto.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

With regard to the Alliance:

I like Hackett's mindset. Hackett's the one who has no problems working with Cerberus if necessary, and he was the one who sent Shepard on the "The Negotiation" mission in ME1. I would like to say a few rude things to the more by-the-book figures in the Alliance and challenge them to adopt the necessary pragmatism necessary to win this war.

On the Cerberus side, I'd like to get the opportunity to persuade some prominent Cerberus figures to "defect" by telling them I agree with the original agenda as written in the Cerberus manifesto, but that TIM indoctrinating his own people seems more like a betrayal of humanity.

Defect to the alliance, no. I'd definitely be in support of getting prominent cerberus figures to split off and form a new organisation under the leadership of the wonderul Ms Lawson to follow the orginal Cerberus manifesto.

All right. Actually, I'd like that more as well. As long as everyone contributes to the war against the Reapers at this point.

[jtav]

May the writer ask for some assistance?

In my present story, due to what amounts to mind control, Miranda is back with Cerberus and a ruthless agent in pursuit of their goals. Her scruples are completely gone. But I need something to demonstrate that. As readers, would you prefer she attack Gellix, kill the scientists, and send the civilians for integration or take Leng's place in the coup? The tricky part is that she gets her own mind back back fairly early on and I have no particular plans for her to die. So I don't want readers demanding her death.

[Skullheart]

Why you think readers would want her head on a spike?

Modifié par Skullheart, 09 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[jtav]

Because she murders Jacob and several other scientists and sends children to be indoctrinated. Normally in these sorts of stories redemption requires death.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
May the writer ask for some assistance?

In my present story, due to what amounts to mind control, Miranda is back with Cerberus and a ruthless agent in pursuit of their goals. Her scruples are completely gone. But I need something to demonstrate that. As readers, would you prefer she attack Gellix, kill the scientists, and send the civilians for integration or take Leng's place in the coup? The tricky part is that she gets her own mind back back fairly early on and I have no particular plans for her to die. So I don't want readers demanding her death.

In that case, Leng's place in the coup would be the better role. At least nobody would get "integrated" as the result of that.

[Skullheart]

So, Miranda will be a better dragon than Leng. It will be difficult for her to find redemption with not dying. Maybe loosing all her memories, that could be worse than death.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

Really? Disregarding whether it makes sense that they’re (unwittingly) working to sabotage efforts to beat the Reapers — this is a ploy the Reapers have used successfully in the past — they clearly are.

Role-playing-wise I can see wanting to go with that option, but I just don’t see any scenario where that leads to anything but defeat?

Well, being able to roleplay an allegiance to Cerberus wouldn't necessarily mean following TIM or Cerberus in its ME3 form.

A Cerberus campaign would recognize the CB choice (you kept it), as well as your desire to remain independant of the Alliance. The end choice of ME2 really suggests that something like this *should* happen. It would probably only have been possible if the game didn't also have to cope with all the might-be-dead characters.
Could/should there have been more dialogue options and at least one squad member option (Miranda ) with a more... pro-"Cerberus as it was meant to be" attitude? Yeah, I think so. Would have made things more interesting.
 

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 04:58 .

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

May the writer ask for some assistance?

In my present story, due to what amounts to mind control, Miranda is back with Cerberus and a ruthless agent in pursuit of their goals. Her scruples are completely gone. But I need something to demonstrate that. As readers, would you prefer she attack Gellix, kill the scientists, and send the civilians for integration or take Leng's place in the coup? The tricky part is that she gets her own mind back back fairly early on and I have no particular plans for her to die. So I don't want readers demanding her death.

Orchestrating the coup would make sense. Murdering scientists seems more a grunt task while orchestrating a coup would require an agile mind imo.

[jtav]

Skullheart wrote...

So, Miranda will be a better dragon than Leng. It will be difficult for her to find redemption with not dying. Maybe loosing all her memories, that could be worse than death.

Well, she comes back to herself soon enough. Essentially, what Cerberus/Henry did was Lazarus her and put in a new personality. The old personality comes back soon enough. If any of you are comics fans, think Winter Soldier.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Really? Disregarding whether it makes sense that they’re (unwittingly) working to sabotage efforts to beat the Reapers — this is a ploy the Reapers have used successfully in the past — they clearly are.

Role-playing-wise I can see wanting to go with that option, but I just don’t see any scenario where that leads to anything but defeat?

Well, being able to roleplay an allegiance to Cerberus wouldn't necessarily mean following TIM or Cerberus in its ME3 form.

A Cerberus campaign would recognize the CB choice (you kept it), as well as your desire to remain independant of the Alliance. The end choice of ME2 really suggests that something like this *should* happen. It would probably only have been possible if the game didn't also have to cope with all the might-be-dead characters.

Sure, but then you’re completely changing a core dynamic of the game, which is Galaxy vs. Reapers + useful idiots, Cerberus.

I don’t necessarily have anything against such a storyline. Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species, Shepard or not. It might be interesting to try to come up with a plausible AU on that premise — but in my opinion, that’d be the first problem you need to solve.

[jtav]

Easy. Cerberus path has you winning via technological superiority. Alliance path has you winning via uniting the galaxy.

Or, your big end-game choice occurs on Cronos. That's where you learn TIM is (a) insane but ( right. You can control the Reapers and use their power as you see fit or destroy them. If you choose to Control, you're essentially a Cerberus mole for the last mission.

Having no "Cerberus option" was a mistake.

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

Easy. Cerberus path has you winning via technological superiority. Alliance path has you winning via uniting the galaxy.

Except their technological superiority is…Reaper tech, and inferior to actual Reapers So you’ll have to do some ’splainin’ around that.

Also, while not strictly a terrible loss, you’ll have to work around not being able to build the Crucible.

So, I guess you could have the Cerbs try winning by just novaing Palaven, Thessia, and other systems to take out 30-50% of the Reapers…but not Earth, so you still need to fight them in some manner. And you have to beat TIM.

All this said, I’d love to see someone come up with a plausible storyline, it’d be quite cool. I just see a ton of potential problems that need to be accounted for.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I don’t necessarily have anything against such a storyline. Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species, Shepard or not. It might be interesting to try to come up with a plausible AU on that premise — but in my opinion, that’d be the first problem you need to solve.

You'd still be opposing Cerberus, though, in its ME3 incarnation. The idea that would drive the Cerberus campaign would be that Cerberus can/should be more than an organisation bent on human domination.

So, Shepard, as an ex-Cerberus operative, along with Miranda and others, would have to prove that Cerberus can unite the galaxy against the Reapers.

To do that, the game would have to break with the Dark Side versus Light Side mentality that underlies Cerberus' portrayal. But the seeds are definitely there in ME2.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 08:15 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species,

With the magnitude of this threat bearing down on everyone, it would be easy to simply handwave it.
Wrex/Wreav won't care Shepard is with Cerberus and the Primarch would be an idiot to refuse help just because the person who offered it wears Black and Golden rather than White and Blue. As for the Geth, Cerberus path could present it's own optimal solution: Control of the Geth as opposed to Peace.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I don’t necessarily have anything against such a storyline. Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species, Shepard or not. It might be interesting to try to come up with a plausible AU on that premise — but in my opinion, that’d be the first problem you need to solve.

You'd still be opposing Cerberus, though, in its ME3 incarnation. The idea that would drive the Cerberus campaign would be that Cerberus can/should be more than an organisation bent on human domination.

So, Shepard, as an ex-Cerberus operative, along with Miranda and others, would have to prove that Cerberus can unite the galaxy against the Reapers.

To do that, the game would have to break with the Dark Side versus Light Side mentality that underlies Cerberus' portrayal. But the seeds are definitely there in ME2.

Hm, I suppose that could be made work, but is it really…see, here’s my problem: if you want Cerberus to be something that it isn’t (overtly pro-human and/or just crazy) and you only have extremely limited time to not only achieve this from within the organization but also change the very strong prejudice everyone will have toward them to have a chance at any kind of a payoff.

So…why would you try to use Cerberus to unite the galaxy? Why not just do the Spectre thing, if you don’t want to go with the Alliance (because it would be uncertain what would happen at the end of ME2 if you surrendered)? To me this kind of seems to shoehorn Cerberus even worse into something that they’re not, just so that you can keep them in the picture.

(I just want to stress once again that I’m not arguing against, specifically…)

[Skullheart]

MisterJB wrote...
As for the Geth, Cerberus path could present it's own optimal solution: Control of the Geth as opposed to Peace.

Thanks for remind me how useless was the decision on Overlord.