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[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species,

With the magnitude of this threat bearing down on everyone, it would be easy to simply handwave it.
Wrex/Wreav won't care Shepard is with Cerberus and the Primarch would be an idiot to refuse help just because the person who offered it wears Black and Golden rather than White and Blue. As for the Geth, Cerberus path could present it's own optimal solution: Control of the Geth as opposed to Peace.

You can handwave it, sure, but I think it suffers from huge credibility problems. Starting chronologically, consider trying to organize the summit…

(And, again, you would have to actually perform the coup inside Cerberus before trying to do this even became an option. But beyond all this, I don’t see what the big payoff is from Cerberus if you disregard their Reaper tech advancements?)

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
Hm, I suppose that could be made work, but is it really…see, here’s my problem: if you want Cerberus to be something that it isn’t (overtly pro-human and/or just crazy) and you only have extremely limited time to not only achieve this from within the organization but also change the very strong prejudice everyone will have toward them to have a chance at any kind of a payoff.

What helps is that this was already achieved in ME2. It was just abandoned in ME3, to the point that it isn't really credible.

You have to introduce the idea that the side of Cerberus we see in ME2 was just a "front" intended to fool Shepard. But that's basically a retcon. Take Mordin, for example. He has no problem at all working with Cerberus in ME2. On the contrary, he seems quite pleased. He recognizes that they haven't habitually worked with aliens, but he's accepting of the possibility.

As Cerberus operatives in ME2, you already have contact with many/most of the species, including, for example, the Krogan.

Take Miranda. She's not xenophobic at all and expresses admiration for alien species on several occasions. Not once does she show any of the... species-ist tendencies of, say, Ashley.

Cerberus *can* be about progress, science, advancement, refusal to accept the status quo.

Edit: I don't think you'd really want to handwave it, tbh. That would be missing the point.

Basically what we are talking about here is a staple of the RPG genre, a choice of *faction*. You accomplish the same thing, but from a different perspective.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 08:35 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
(And, again, you would have to actually perform the coup inside Cerberus before trying to do this even became an option. But beyond all this, I don’t see what the big payoff is from Cerberus if you disregard their Reaper tech advancements?)

Well, Miranda fans tend to believe that the Alliance is a blunt object and nothing else. Too slowed down by bureaucracies as well as the responsability of being the face of humanity to actually protect it and serve its advancement and so, we like the idea of the human race having its own Special Tasks Groups.
Much like Ashley fans tend to be Alliance loyalists and Jack fans like Omega.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[flemm]

I'll add that the whole idea of TIM indoctrinating his troops suggests that Cerberus has fundamentally changed in some way. Otherwise, why would this be necessary?

Take this bit of info from the Rebellion MP DLC:

When the Illusive Man turned to indoctrination in order to ensure the loyalty of his troops, many Cerberus operatives defected and joined the Alliance in order to stop the Reapers. Now that we’re on the same team, Ex-Cerberus Vanguards (along with their new Lash attack) are quickly proving their worth.

What's latent in that idea is that most of Cerberus would oppose TIM in ME3. Why? How does the above even make sense if Cerberus was just a bunch of crazy extremists to begin with?

Why does the main campaign ignore this obvious and important possibility?

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 08:48 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Take Miranda. She's not xenophobic at all and expresses admiration for alien species on several occasions. Not once does she show any of the... species-ist tendencies of, say, Ashley.

Cerberus *can* be about progress, science, advancement, refusal to accept the status quo.

Indeed. That's what I liked about Cerberus. They push the envelope in science and technology. See Shepard. Basically, without Cerberus and Miranda's Lazarus Project the galaxy would have fallen to the Reapers. People tend to forget that.

Mac Walters once said Cerberus was intended to embody the best and the worst of humanity. And they are that in ME2. Only instead of letting the best and the worst stand side by side, people insist that the worst taints the best. Then comes ME3 and all goes to hell, and those people feel vindicated. For that reason more than any other, I hate what Bioware made of Cerberus in ME3.

[wright1978]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Still, even with a complete rewrite, I just don’t really see it as a winning move to side with Cerberus. It’ll (sufficiently) alienate all the other species,

With the magnitude of this threat bearing down on everyone, it would be easy to simply handwave it.
Wrex/Wreav won't care Shepard is with Cerberus and the Primarch would be an idiot to refuse help just because the person who offered it wears Black and Golden rather than White and Blue. As for the Geth, Cerberus path could present it's own optimal solution: Control of the Geth as opposed to Peace.

Yeah they already hand wave the Shep sacrificing the council thing, as Shep can still recruit these allies.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Hm, I suppose that could be made work, but is it really…see, here’s my problem: if you want Cerberus to be something that it isn’t (overtly pro-human and/or just crazy) and you only have extremely limited time to not only achieve this from within the organization but also change the very strong prejudice everyone will have toward them to have a chance at any kind of a payoff.

What helps is that this was already achieved in ME2. It was just abandoned in ME3, to the point that it isn't really credible.

I have to disagree here slightly more strongly than I do with the overall idea…at the end of ME2, Cerberus definitely was not  redeemed in the eyes of the galactic community (even those who might be willing to give Cerberus credit rather than all to Shepard would simply attribute it to working to salvage the humans — which is exactly the reason why Cerberus was involved).

You would, of course, have the 6 months to work — assuming you can evade the Alliance who want you for questioning, and that somehow Hackett trusts you enough to send you for Arrival even though you’ve not dumped the Cerbs etc.

So you could maybe stage the coup within that 6 months, and then you’d start the game controlling an organization torn to pieces by a civil war, trying to establish its legitimacy. To what end?

Take Miranda. She's not xenophobic at all and expresses admiration for alien species on several occasions. Not once does she show any of the... species-ist tendencies of, say, Ashley.

Yes, the writing on Cerberus is self-contradicting right from the start of ME2. It’s apparently full of people who really like everything not human

Cerberus *can* be about progress, science, advancement, refusal to accept the status quo.

Basically what we are talking about here is a staple of the RPG genre, a choice of *faction*. You accomplish the same thing, but from a different perspective.

OK, but again, it seems like you’re just shoehorning it. Cerberus isn’t about progress etc. It’s about human interests, if not outright human superiority. Why does it have to be Cerberus? Even Miranda doesn’t particularly care about the core values of Cerberus by the end of the trek.

Wouldn’t the far more logical move be, if you wanted to do that independent thing, to go with your Spectre resources and start building a coalition around the people you’ve recruited, and have them draw from their own people to form this central progress etc. ‘alternative Council’? I think that would be a more satisfying alternative path.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

I'll add that the whole idea of TIM indoctrinating his troops suggests that Cerberus has fundamentally changed in some way. Otherwise, why would this be necessary?

Take this bit of info from the Rebellion MP DLC:

When the Illusive Man turned to indoctrination in order to ensure the loyalty of his troops, many Cerberus operatives defected and joined the Alliance in order to stop the Reapers. Now that we’re on the same team, Ex-Cerberus Vanguards (along with their new Lash attack) are quickly proving their worth.

What's latent in that idea is that most of Cerberus would oppose TIM in ME3. Why? How does the above even make sense if Cerberus was just a bunch of crazy extremists to begin with?

Why does the main campaign ignore this obvious and important possibility?

Yeah a real shame, especially as Miranda would be perfect to rally these forces as evidenced in the shadowbroker e-mail.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

I'll add that the whole idea of TIM indoctrinating his troops suggests that Cerberus has fundamentally changed in some way. Otherwise, why would this be necessary?

Take this bit of info from the Rebellion MP DLC:

When the Illusive Man turned to indoctrination in order to ensure the loyalty of his troops, many Cerberus operatives defected and joined the Alliance in order to stop the Reapers. Now that we’re on the same team, Ex-Cerberus Vanguards (along with their new Lash attack) are quickly proving their worth.

What's latent in that idea is that most of Cerberus would oppose TIM in ME3. Why? How does the above even make sense if Cerberus was just a bunch of crazy extremists to begin with?

Why does the main campaign ignore this obvious and important possibility?

No, no…it does not say that at all!

1. TIM starts applying indoctrination to his troops to improve them and have better control over them;

2. People value their independence and don’t think highly of being huskified.

3. Said people defect.

It doesn’t in any way indicate an internal strife before (especially if you simultaneously claim that Cerberus’ reputation was getting better at that point, since it would make even less sense). Although I’m sure some would defect to help the Alliance when Earth is attacked anyway.

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 juin 2012 - 09:10 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I have to disagree here slightly more strongly than I do with the overall idea…at the end of ME2, Cerberus definitely was not  redeemed in the eyes of the galactic community (even those who might be willing to give Cerberus credit rather than all to Shepard would simply attribute it to working to salvage the humans — which is exactly the reason why Cerberus was involved).

It wouldn't have to be. The goal wouldn't be to create a situation where everyone agrees and gets along prior to the game even starting. What would be the point of that?

It's not as if humanity doesn't face trust issues regardless.

lillitheris wrote...
So you could maybe stage the coup within that 6 months, and then you’d start the game controlling an organization torn to pieces by a civil war, trying to establish its legitimacy. To what end?

I don't think that's how it would work. TIM would still control Cerberus, having turned to indoctrination to control his troops. The "coup" wouldn't really happen until Shepard finally took control at Cronos station toward the end of the game.

lillitheris wrote...

Yes, the writing on Cerberus is self-contradicting right from the start of ME2. It’s apparently full of people who really like everything not human  

It isn't self-contradicting, though, unless you accept the idea that Cerberus *should* be full of only pro-human extremists. As it happens, it clearly isn't.

OK, but again, it seems like you’re just shoehorning it. Cerberus isn’t about progress etc. It’s about human interests, if not outright human superiority. Why does it have to be Cerberus? Even Miranda doesn’t particularly care about the core values of Cerberus by the end of the trek.

There's really nothing to support the bolded idea. Unless one accepts that the core value is human superiority, but that's something that Miranda never espouses in the first place.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 09:15 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

No, no…it does not say that at all!

The individuals' motivations are not explored in that brief statement. No doubt they would vary. But it certainly tends to confirm the permeability of the Alliance and Cerberus that is established/strongly suggested in ME2, rather than the idea that it's a crazy extremist group.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[dtrain24]

Hey everyone, I was talking to Yesika. We just want to point out the #FindMiranda group for all the newcomers to the thread. The link is here: http://social.bioware.com/group/7341/

We also ask that if any of you are well known and respected in other threads, if you could possibly mention the #FindMiranda campaign there as a small recommendation, that'd be great.

One last thing- Keep tweeting the BW Devs with #FindMiranda!

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...
You have to introduce the idea that the side of Cerberus we see in ME2 was just a "front" intended to fool Shepard. But that's basically a retcon.

Isn't that what the logs on Cronos try to assert though?

God, that was so cringeworthy.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I have to disagree here slightly more strongly than I do with the overall idea…at the end of ME2, Cerberus definitely was not  redeemed in the eyes of the galactic community (even those who might be willing to give Cerberus credit rather than all to Shepard would simply attribute it to working to salvage the humans — which is exactly the reason why Cerberus was involved).

It wouldn't have to be. The goal wouldn't be to create a situation where everyone agrees and gets along prior to the game even starting. What would be the point of that?

It's not as if humanity doesn't face trust issues regardless.

Perhaps I read too much into the portion I was quoting. I thought you were saying that Cerberus’ credibility problem was not an issue at the end of ME2. What was it that you were trying to say?

lillitheris wrote...
So you could maybe stage the coup within that 6 months, and then you’d start the game controlling an organization torn to pieces by a civil war, trying to establish its legitimacy. To what end?

I don't think that's how it would work. TIM would still control Cerberus, having turned to indoctrination to control his troops. The "coup" wouldn't really happen until Shepard finally took control at Cronos station toward the end of the game.

OK, I’m confused now…can you lay out the factions you consider to be at play at this point, and their relative strengths? Why would Shepard want to run maybe a quarter of Cerberus without access to their most important resources (which TIM controls), essentially sacrificing significant credibility for very little gain?

Why is Shepard attacking Cronos? With what resources?

lillitheris wrote...

Yes, the writing on Cerberus is self-contradicting right from the start of ME2. It’s apparently full of people who really like everything not human  

It isn't self-contradicting, though, unless you accept the idea that Cerberus *should* be full of only pro-human extremists. As it happens, it clearly isn't.

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking that an overtly pro-human group — and this is not merely propaganda, just listen to TIM and read the canon sources about Cerberus activities — consists apparently mainly of people who aren’t. I think it’s a flaw of writing…they wanted a twist, and they had to handwave the personalities so that people would actually play the game.

…

I guess I just don’t understand why you’re so wedded to Cerberus when what you actually want clearly isn’t anything like Cerberus. Why does Cerberus have to become that? Why can’t Shepard strike out on their own?

From my perspective, this would not make a plausible story despite having an interesting premise.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

No, no…it does not say that at all!

The individuals' motivations are not explored in that brief statement. No doubt they would vary. But it certainly tends to confirm the permeability of the Alliance and Cerberus that is established/strongly suggested in ME2, rather than the idea that it's a crazy extremist group.

Let me rephrase: there is nothing in that statement that supports your hypothesis about an internal strife. I agree, there’s nothing contradicting it, but plain reading indicates that the strife was caused by the husk thing, not the other way around.

[dtrain24]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

No, no…it does not say that at all!

The individuals' motivations are not explored in that brief statement. No doubt they would vary. But it certainly tends to confirm the permeability of the Alliance and Cerberus that is established/strongly suggested in ME2, rather than the idea that it's a crazy extremist group.

The way I see it, Ceberus' views are the Illusive Man's views. He runs the show, so the organization follows his policies, even if they don't 100% agree with them.
I doubt Miranda would experiment on humans.
Sure, some individuals within the organization have more extreme views than others who might have joined because they felt it was for the best of humanity.  TIM is the one who makes Cerberus an extremist group.

[wright1978]

hot_heart wrote...

flemm wrote...
You have to introduce the idea that the side of Cerberus we see in ME2 was just a "front" intended to fool Shepard. But that's basically a retcon.

Isn't that what the logs on Cronos try to assert though?

God, that was so cringeworthy.

Yep utterly cringeworthy. Cerberus' 2nd in command is part of a front to fool Shep.

[Dr. Doctor]

 A tenuous alliance between Cerberus and the Alliance would have been interesting to see. TIM offers his assistance and if Shepard accepts Cerberus troops will start assisting the Allied forces in a number of battles...only to vanish from the field after the fight. Miranda comes onboard as the Cerberus' liason to the allied forces. Sanctuary would be the point where TIM shows his true colors and we find out how Cerberus troops are made.

One thing I'm a little shaky on is Cerberus' background. ME1 has them being a black-ops group that went rogue while the novels and ME2 establish it as a privately-funded organization, and ME3 brings up the black-ops backstory again. So what exactly is their deal?

[lillitheris]

^ TIM was mercenary (or black-ops already then?) a long time ago; it seems still in that role in the events of Genesis (i.e. during First Contact War) which is when he is exposed to Reaper tech the first time. Sometime shortly after this, TIM goes off the grid and starts up Cerberus in the current form. It’s never defined whether there was some kind of a core team that defected along with TIM, but it seems unlikely. It’s solidly a privately funded group with solid terrorist/extremist leanings (and acts) before the events of ME1 start, but apparently the Alliance used their wetwork ‘services’ inconsistently at some points in those preceding years — I think this is mainly what’s referred to as the ‘black ops’.

It’s intentionally left hazy.

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 juin 2012 - 10:19 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
Let me rephrase: there is nothing in that statement that supports your hypothesis about an internal strife. I agree, there’s nothing contradicting it, but plain reading indicates that the strife was caused by the husk thing, not the other way around.

If you reread my posts, you will note that I never emitted a hypothesis about internal strife prior to TIM beginning to indoctrinate his troops. 

To try to be a bit more explicit...

1) TIM starts indoctrinating his troops to ensure their loyalty. This suggests a change in policy, since Cerberus had never relied on this tactic before. What motivated this change? Well, one reason is that TIM himself is falling under the influence of the Reapers. But another strong possibility is that TIM understood that many/most of his subordinates would not follow him where he wants to lead in ME3.

2) This is supported by the idea of mass defections *and* mass recruitment by the alliance. If the Cerberus operatives are all irredeemably crazy, why are they being recruited en masse? If the Cerberus operatives are all onboard with TIM's approach to beating the Reapers (and just don't want to be indoctrinated), why are so many fighting with the Alliance? 

Not to mention that basically everyone we know from Cerberus, except Leng, does not espouse any sort of extremist agenda/is not crazy (Miranda, Kelly, Jacob, Dr. Cole, Petrovsky).

It's seems pretty clear that the organisation cannot and should not be reduced to a crazy bunch of extremists. Moreover, it's simply less interesting if it is.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 10:34 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I guess I just don’t understand why you’re so wedded to Cerberus when what you actually want clearly isn’t anything like Cerberus. Why does Cerberus have to become that? Why can’t Shepard strike out on their own?

It *is* like Cerberus, though. Just Cerberus as the organisation is portrayed in ME2. It makes sense to develop that idea, rather than abandon it.

Could it be something else completely? Sure. The idea of some kind of new organisation that embodies more or less the same type of thing that a *Reformed Cerberus* might embody comes up a lot as well.

It could be handled that way.

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking that an overtly pro-human group — and this is not merely propaganda, just listen to TIM and read the canon sources about Cerberus activities — consists apparently mainly of people who aren’t.

Being pro-human does not make someone anti-alien.

[dtrain24]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking that an overtly pro-human group — and this is not merely propaganda, just listen to TIM and read the canon sources about Cerberus activities — consists apparently mainly of people who aren’t.

Being pro-human does not make someone anti-alien.

Miranda is a perfect example.

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking that an overtly pro-human group — and this is not merely propaganda, just listen to TIM and read the canon sources about Cerberus activities — consists apparently mainly of people who aren’t.

Being pro-human does not make someone anti-alien.

Semantic canard. Wiki:

“Cerberus[/b] is a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Systems Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races.
Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including
illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and
assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are
brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the
Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly.”

…

Anyway, I’ve taken enough of your time. You’re wedded to the idea that Cerberus is really just a pretty cool but misunderstood outfit, I’m not.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

Anyway, I’ve taken enough of your time. You’re wedded to the idea that Cerberus is really just a pretty cool but misunderstood outfit, I’m not.

On the contrary, the point being made is not that it's "pretty cool" or "misunderstood," but rather that it's more interesting when portrayed as complex (as in ME2), rather than simplistic (as in ME3).

I don't think that point can really be dismissed simply because it was not always that way.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juin 2012 - 11:19 .