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[o Ventus]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

[dtrain24]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Err....what? What game have you been playing? It's certainly not the Mass Effect 3 I have on my PC. ME3 Shepard is fine in the Miranda romance, from the start to the end, actually. What kind of action are you missing?

How about a smile when he first sees Miranda on the Citadel after six months or "I missed you"? Or show some worriness when he sees her being attacked? He could also not have shown more affection and concern for Ashely, which no one here can deny he acted like Miranda was an incovenient and that Ashley was the one he truly cared about. If Miranda dies I don't recal Shepard shedding one tear and he didn't seem affected by her death at all. Or after the attack, how about inviting Miranda and Oriana to the Normandy there being probably the safest place on the galaxy?

Maybe you settle for coldness and indifference, but I think there was so much more that he (read BioWare) could've done. Shepard even shows more affection for Jack, hell he even kisses her. I don't remember him trying to kiss Miranda in any of their meetings and if my boyfriend doesn't wanna kiss me or seems happy when he sees me I'm pretty sure something is wrong.

o Ventus wrote...

I don't know about Shepard, but if the woman I was currently involved
with (Even someone as capable as Miranda) suddenly came under attack by
Storm Shad-- Kai Leng... I think my reaction would be closer to "Holy
****, is she gonna be alright? We need to get there, fast!", not just
"Welp, maybe she can fight him off". It isn't an issue of relevance or
whther or not Miranda can fight him, but because he and her are romantically involved, and she may or may not die here, a little human emotion isn't asking too much, Shepard.

Exactly. Shepard's lack of concern about Miranda is very upsetting. Like I said, the whole time playing I couldn't shape my Shepard to be in love with Miranda and for a RPG that is so wrong. That's why when it comes to writing characters, DA:O team wins hands down.

I agree. I mean, we got a few memorable lines from Shepard, but that's about it.  Babi is spot on with everything.  Shepard was like "I hope she's ready for Kai Leng" when he saw her get attacked. That's his love interest that could be killed there, and that's all he can say?
An "I missed you" or "I love you" would have been nice. And a kiss that wasn't part of her death as well.

[Vertigo_1]

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

No, it's about the romances in general.  Which involves both of them.

[o Ventus]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

No, it's about the romances in general.  Which involves both of them.

Not 1 mention has been made of Miranda's role in the romance. Literally, everything so far has been about Shepard's lack of emotion in the dialogue, and how insanely idiotic it comes off as.

[MisterJB]

Babi_Siha wrote...
He could also not have shown more affection and concern for Ashely, which no one here can deny he acted like Miranda was an incovenient and that Ashley was the one he truly cared about.

I can. While it is true Bioware gave more importance to the Ashley romance, my Shepard carried her on his shoulders just like he would have done any marine, he then proceded to not once visit her in the hospital and shot her during the Citadel Coup.
And I can't even imagine where you came up Miranda being an incovenient.

If Miranda dies I don't recal Shepard shedding one tear and he didn't seem affected by her death at all.

Shepard doesn't cry once in all three games but he seemed very affected by her death. He even had trouble accepting it.
Maybe they could have done more with it like making a scene for ME2 squadmates, dead or alive, that can't be present before the attack on Cronos.

Maybe you settle for coldness and indifference, but I think there was so much more that he (read BioWare) could've done.

With that I can agree.

Shepard even shows more affection for Jack, hell he even kisses her. I don't remember him trying to kiss Miranda in any of their meetings

Jack kissed him. Thus showing that she wanted their relationship to continue.
With Miranda he was as much in the dark as her until she asked if she was still part of his plans not to mention Miranda simply is not the type of woman who jumps into someone's arms. 
While I can agree that they could have done more, you are being quite unfair.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
While I can agree that they could have done more, you are being quite unfair.

I'm not sure it's being unfair exactly. There are good things about the romance. But it definitely needs more, and specifically, it needs a better payoff.

The end of Sanctuary is just completely unjustifiable. Period.

Modifié par flemm, 12 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[jtav]

More yeah, but Shep seems more caring and almost in awe of her.

[Babi_Siha]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

No, it's about the romances in general.  Which involves both of them.

Yes, Miranda is more reserved than Jack and not as fond of PDA, but that doesn't mean they couldn't kiss in their first meeting, I'm not talking about a make-out but just a peck on the lips at the very least. Also, on Horizon that could be the last time they saw each other considering the threat they were against, so again why no hug and kiss? Shepard could even tell Miranda he loved her at that moment or at during their final goodbye scene, which he also told Jack.

[Vertigo_1]

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

No, it's about the romances in general.  Which involves both of them.

Not 1 mention has been made of Miranda's role in the romance. Literally, everything so far has been about Shepard's lack of emotion in the dialogue, and how insanely idiotic it comes off as.

Doesn't matter, the romance involves both. If Miranda is reserved then the romance in itself is more reserved (more private).
Jack's romance isn't so reserved so there's chances to be more open (Shep has the option of an interrupt kiss at the end of the mission)

IMO Shep/Miranda aren't a normal couple, and I don't think they ever will be.
Of course, I would have liked a pillow talk scene

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 12 juin 2012 - 06:52 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

More yeah, but Shep seems more caring and almost in awe of her.

Those are good things. I can also excuse certain things on the basis that the romance will not always be active and it's probably not worth doing variants.

If there were a better payoff after the separation of the early part of the game, then it would basically be good imo.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Err....what? What game have you been playing? It's certainly not the Mass Effect 3 I have on my PC. ME3 Shepard is fine in the Miranda romance, from the start to the end, actually. What kind of action are you missing?

Well, I do think there should be more direct and open affection. Not that the playfulness and "beneath the surface" stuff isn't good, but not all the time.

It needs a better payoff at the end especially.

I agree about the better payoff at the end, but I envisioned my Shepard as somewhat subdued in expressing emotions. This "I'll always want you in my life" was perfect. It says what needs to be said without getting excessive. Then the third conversation on the Citadel where he's almost in awe of Miranda for bringing him back. Perfect as well. No, I don't have the slightest issue with Shepard's expressing what he feels for Miranda except that there should've been more around the end, especially a more extended romance scene with more passion (but only there, nowhere else). But even what was there - the goodbye scene for instance - was done well. Perhaps it didn't fit some Shepards, but it sure fit mine perfectly. 

Edit:
I would love a kiss, but not out in the open. In the third encounter, most certainly. I miss it there.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[o Ventus]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I think they did the whole opposite thing when it came to Jack and Miranda romance. Just so things aren't the same throughout
Miranda is more reserved while Jack isn't.

Irrelevant, since the discussion is about Shepard's role, not theirs.

No, it's about the romances in general.  Which involves both of them.

Not 1 mention has been made of Miranda's role in the romance. Literally, everything so far has been about Shepard's lack of emotion in the dialogue, and how insanely idiotic it comes off as.

Doesn't matter, the romance involves both. If Miranda is reserved then the romance in itself is more reserved (more private).
Jack's romance isn't so reserved so there's chances to be more open (Shep has the option of an interrupt kiss at the end of the mission)

I think I need my meds.

The discussion is going on solely about Shepard's dialogue and Shepard's deliverance of said dialogue. Not Miranda or her dialogue. Not Kai Leng, or Anderson, or anyone or anything else.

Just Shepard.

[MisterJB]

Babi_Siha wrote...
Also, on Horizon that could be the last time they saw each other considering the threat they were against, so again why no hug and kiss?

This I can agree with.
 

Shepard could even tell Miranda he loved her at that moment or at during their final goodbye scene, which he also told Jack.

Different types of Goodbyes for different romances. Jack gets an "I love you", with Miranda Shepard finally makes the promise they've both been avoiding for almost two games.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree about the better payoff at the end, but I envisioned my Shepard as somewhat subdued in expressing emotions.

Well, that's fine. But again... options. It's not like every line needs to be super emotional from Shep. But there should be some options like that available.

Modifié par flemm, 12 juin 2012 - 07:01 .

[Babi_Siha]

MisterJB wrote...

With Miranda he was as much in the dark as her until she asked if she was still part of his plans not to mention Miranda simply is not the type of woman who jumps into someone's arms.
While I can agree that they could have done more, you are being quite unfair.

He could be in the dark, not knowing where they stood but that doesn't mean he couldn't be happy just to see her. She's not that type of woman, agreed, but Shepard kissing her in ME2 also proves that he's not against doing something like that if he really wants to. And like I said, I wasn't talking about a full make out scene, just a peck on the lips would be enough.

I really don't think I was being unfair at all, the writers made their dislike towards Miranda pretty clear. Shepard was so cold to her, all words no action... Miranda settles for nothing but the best and when it comes to boyfriend material I'm pretty sure she could find someone more caring. And before someone tells me Shepard had the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders he did find time to be a little romantic with his other LIs, so... Damn BioWare and their favoritism.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 12 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[hot_heart]

Maybe it's my own preferences creeping in but, sometimes, the dialogue has that film noir-ish feel, where a lot is left unspoken but still implied and understood between the characters. Especially when it becomes more playful.

Modifié par hot_heart, 12 juin 2012 - 07:05 .

[Vertigo_1]

o Ventus wrote...
I think I need my meds.

The discussion is going on solely about Shepard's dialogue and Shepard's deliverance of said dialogue. Not Miranda or her dialogue. Not Kai Leng, or Anderson, or anyone or anything else.

Just Shepard.

I know that.
Having Shepard act more open in a romance that isn't made to be like that isn't going to work IMO.
Didn't have a problem with the way he delivered that dialog.  Only wanted a pillow talk scene and her being there @ the FoB

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 12 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[wright1978]

I'd like a kiss in the romance as i feel it badly missing that sort of affection. That's coupled with the annoyance over the cheap fade to black cut scene.

[MisterJB]

Babi_Siha wrote...
He could be in the dark, not knowing where they stood but that doesn't mean he couldn't be happy just to see her.
 

He said he was happy to see her again. It was the first thing he said.

She's not that type of woman, agreed, but Shepard kissing her in ME2 also proves that he's not against doing something like that if he really wants to.

They were in the privacy of her cabin. Still, I could have lived with a Renegade interrupt either on the first or fourth conversation where Shepard takes the initiative to kiss her.

And like I said, I wasn't talking about a full make out scene, just a peck on the lips would be enough.

Technically, we got that. That kiss during the first conversation was ambiguous enough.

I really don't think I was being unfair at all, the writers made their dislike towards Miranda pretty clear. Shepard was so cold to her, all words no action... Miranda settles for nothing but the best and when it comes to boyfriend material I'm pretty sure she could find someone more caring. And before someone tells me Shepard had the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders he did find time to be a little romantic with his other LIs, so... Damn BioWare and their favoritism.

I disagree. I tought Shepard came off as very caring, clearly concerned with her safety during it all but also very respecteful of Miranda and her abilities and so, wouldn't attempt to coddle her.
It's not even close to being perfect, of course, but I tought the general them of it was every well done.

[o Ventus]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
I think I need my meds.

The discussion is going on solely about Shepard's dialogue and Shepard's deliverance of said dialogue. Not Miranda or her dialogue. Not Kai Leng, or Anderson, or anyone or anything else.

Just Shepard.

I know that.
Having Shepard act more open in a romance that isn't made to be like that isn't going to work IMO.
Didn't have a problem with the way he delivered that dialog.  Only wanted a pillow talk scene and her being there @ the FoB

And how can you say it is or isn't meant to be like that?

[Babi_Siha]

MisterJB wrote...

He said he was happy to see her again. It was the first thing he said.

Again, just words. Miranda was all smile (as fer as her smiling goes anyway) and if you take a close look to Shepard's facial expression he seems completely indifferent, like he was trying to be polite but wasn't really happy. And he doesn't actually say he's glad to see her, Miranda says "Shepard, it's so good to finally see you" and he replies "you too, Miranda" all the while touching that shoulder that never seems to be fixed and looking rather uninterested.

They were in the privacy of her cabin. Still, I could have lived with a Renegade interrupt either on the first or fourth conversation where Shepard takes the initiative to kiss her.

Yes, a renegade interruption would be awesome and sort of an homage to the previous game and their first kiss if such interruption was taken.

Technically, we got that. That kiss during the first conversation was ambiguous enough.

There's no way that was a kiss on the lips. It seemed pretty clear to be a peck on the cheek.

I disagree. I tought Shepard came off as very caring, clearly concerned with her safety during it all but also very respecteful of Miranda and her abilities and so, wouldn't attempt to coddle her.
It's not even close to being perfect, of course, but I tought the general them of it was every well done.

Yes, Miranda doesn't need to be coddled and Shepard knew that, which is not to say that seing the person he allegedly love being attacked, as competent as she was, wouldn't bring out his irrational, emotional side. It was a situation he had to remain cool, but seing something like that would surely bring out an emotional response if it were any other LI in that situation.

[o Ventus]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Yes, Miranda doesn't need to be coddled and Shepard knew that, which is not to say that seing the person he allegedly love being attacked, as competent as she was, wouldn't bring out his irrational, emotional side. It was a situation he had to remain cool, but seing something like that would surely bring out an emotional response if it were any other LI in that situation.

So much, this.

Shepard, I'm sure, is more than aware of her abilities and knows that she is competent and able to defend herself if things get bad.

But then again, he and her are in love and she very well could die here, regardless of her abilities. Stoneface Shepard is fine in most cases, but this definitely was not one of them. Having Shepard's face display something beyond "Meh" or having his voice maybe hit an emotion doesn't downplay Miranda's skill. At all. If anything, it furthers the notion. As skilled as Miranda is and as competent as she is, she might not come out of this one.

Emoting concern =/= coddling, for the record.

[lillitheris]

^ Not to spark a holy war, but m’thinks Hale would have done better there… Meer just doesn’t do the emotional stuff as well (I personally don’t think well at all, but there’s disagreement on that point).

Modifié par lillitheris, 12 juin 2012 - 07:50 .

[wright1978]

Would have loved a renegade kiss interrupt during that silly revisiting of the control chip convo.

[hot_heart]

Plus, he'd already lost a lot of people close to him. Once again, though, it's probably more cutting corners and not including more varied dialogue instances.

Modifié par hot_heart, 12 juin 2012 - 07:52 .