82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

They weren't interested in actually dealing with her infertility. It exists simply to evoke pity. Poor, tragic Miranda who only ever wanted to be loved.

I think I'm going to be sick.

[flemm]

I will say this: I think jtav and JB are 100% right that the idea was introduced for the objectionable reasons they suggest.

But, it *is* an interesting idea any way.

Which is why people on the whole don't see it as a horrible flaw as they doubtless intended. (Sorry, Bioware )

[Taboo]

That's who she's always been. Can't you see it on her face?

Everything she presents herself as in the beginning of ME2 is a result of years of abuse. As it turns out, people in those situations become Anti-Social. They wish to join in and cannot. She wants to be happy but cannot make the jump.

It's psychology. This is why everyone who doesn't romance her thinks she's a ****. It's a facade. She's very much human, and very much wants to have those basic things.

But years of abuse makes it very difficult to BOND WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

[MisterJB]

almondroy wrote...

I agree with the assessment that Miranda wanted to be a mother.

I have never been an opponent of Miranda wanting to have a child. It's simply another layer of the character, one that I find unnacessery but I'll just focus on the other aspects I find more interesting.
it's when her family begins to ecompass everything that it becomes character assassination. When Miranda went to Sanctuary not because it was a corruption of everything she used to stand for but because Oriana was there. When what she wishes for Oriana to have are the archetypal goals in a fictional woman's life and not simply to be free to follow her own path.

edit: Wanting to have a child could have actually lead to interesting places like Miranda accepting how a person is born has no relevance on who she is and creating her child like her father created her.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2012 - 01:17 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
She's very much human, and very much wants to have those basic things.

That's not a problem. It's fine that she wants those things. But not fine that they replace other aspects of the character.

Also, there is no reason at all why she cannot have them. She *can* have them.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 01:19 .

[ripslip]

I don't have a problem with her wanting kids, but the discovery of that desire is awful. There's little to no exploration of the topic. It wouldn't be as bad if the Miranda in ME3 isn't a watered down shell of her ME2 self - because I don't trust the writers, I want to just attribute it to lazy writing pretend like that line doesn't exist...actually in my mirimance that line wasn't said. *puts fingers in ears* It doesn't exist. Ignorance is bliss, right?

[Taboo]

Understand that these characters aren't as complex as we like to think they are.

These are not characters from a Mike Leigh film, or a Cassavetes film, or an Ozu film.

They are going to have stereotypes, you're going to have to deal with that.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They are going to have stereotypes, you're going to have to deal with that.

Miranda in ME2 does not have that problem. There is no reason why she should suddenly have that problem in ME3.

[MisterJB]

I don't think I will. I prefer to just replay ME2.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They are going to have stereotypes, you're going to have to deal with that.

Miranda in ME2 does not have that problem. There is no reason why she should suddenly have that problem in ME3.

Yes she does. I'm sorry.

[almondroy]

To be fair, who DOESN'T have Daddy or Mommy issues on the Normandy?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...


Yes she does. I'm sorry.

*snip*

Errr... that's not a stereotype. Sorry

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


Yes she does. I'm sorry.

*snip*

Errr... that's not a stereotype. Sorry

Yes it is.

She's a femme fatale. Bioware even made her hair black to match that look. She was originally blonde.

What was a driving force behind femme fatales in film noir?

Daddy issues.

She's been around as long as Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. If you'd like, I can send you material on the matter.

[jtav]

If I thought ME2 Miranda was a stereotype, specifically the stereotype Taboo describes, I would not be here. I liked her because she was ambitious, ruthless and principled. She loved her sister, but she wanted to *do* things, to improve humanity as a whole. She has issues, but she's cocky as hell. That's my girl. That will always be my girl.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

She's been around as long as Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. If you'd like, I can send you material on the matter.

All characters correspond to some sort of archetype, roughly. This is not news to anyone. What makes characters unique is how the archetype is implemented, with variations, elements that go against the grain of expectations, etc.

Miranda draws on a couple of different archetypes, yes. That's only the beginning, though.

As it happens, where Miranda is concerned, the two most prominent ones are actually somewhat in contradiction with one another: femme fatale and ice queen.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[Trauma3x]

She should be playable especially if she's ur Shep's LI

[MisterJB]

Miranda subverted the femme fatale stereotype. She did not attempt to seduce Shepard, she simply tried to explain to him the necessity of their cause because she believed in it.
She did not betray Shepard nor did she betray TIM because of Shepard but simply because he went against what she believed in.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[Taboo]

I saw a woman with similar issues in Prometheus. In Charlize Theron.

Ambitious, Ruthless and Principled.

She too had daddy issues.

By jtav's estimates, he could have been sleeping with her. They're practically the same thing by his standards.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 01:40 .

[jtav]

Specifically, she's really not much of a temptress. She tries to persuade Shep, not seduce him, and she's almost oblivious to her own charms. She's a normal adult.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I saw a woman with similar issues in Prometheus. In Charlize Theron.

Ambitious, Ruthless and Principled.

She too had daddy issues.

By jtav's estimates, he could have been sleeping with her. They're practically the same thing by his standards.

Overall, the key point is that any and every character can be grouped with a set of similar characters. Some more transparently than others.

As it happens with Miranda, it's fairly complicated. You touched on that yourself with the description you just used:

Ambitious, Ruthless and Principled.

That's not the same grouping as the femme fatale. To quote Black Widow in the Avengers (also a "femme fatale"): I had a certain set of skills. I didn't care who I used them for.

So, in that particular example, she is ruthless, but not principled initially. These variations are important.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 01:46 .

[Taboo]

She's designed to a strong determined woman. That's who she is. Past actions by her father contribute to her behavior.

When Shepard gets involved, she changes. Jack does the same thing from what I understand.

She comes out of her shell. That's what it is. That's why she smiles more, as Kasumi states. She's happy to have someone in her life for the first time.

Read the last section here. Femme Fatale inspired the way she looks.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 01:46 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
She comes out of her shell. That's what it is. That's why she smiles more, as Kasumi states. She's happy to have someone in her life for the first time.

As it happens, it isn't the first time. It seems that she had a perfectly healthy relationship with Jacob previously. She still cares enough about him to keep a promise to him well after they have broken up.

That type of thing is the difference, really. It's not that there isn't a general movement that one can identify, more or less as you describe. But rather that it isn't handled in a simplistic way.

Taboo-XX wrote...

Read the last section here. Femme Fatale inspired the way she looks.

Already acknowledged and not really relevant to the distinction being made. Is this distinction important? Yes. It is the difference between good and bad writing. One-dimensional characters and multi-dimensional ones.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 01:51 .

[o Ventus]

Babi_Siha wrote...

jtav wrote...

Hmm. Do you think Miranda could be the aggressor in a romance under circumstances that don't involve suicide missions? This is for a revised Portrait and the new Matt is a poor droupout (had to get a job) and is really insecure about the class difference.

I can't see it. Maybe she could flare her biotics, but I don't think she would assault him or something. I can imagine her getting angry over something, but trying to keep her cool façade at all cost.

This. Like when Jack confronted Miranda, she obviously flared up a bit, but she didn't flip out.

[MisterJB]

How she looks is not what makes Miranda who she is.

No one here has a problem with Miranda becoming warmer when alone with someone she likes. Revolving her role in ME3 around her family is character assassination in the first degree, however.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
She comes out of her shell. That's what it is. That's why she smiles more, as Kasumi states. She's happy to have someone in her life for the first time.

As it happens, it isn't the first time. It seems that she had a perfectly healthy relationship with Jacob previously. She still cares enough about him to keep a promise to him well after they have broken up.

That type of thing is the difference, really. It's not that there isn't a general movement that one can identify, more or less as you describe. But rather that it isn't handled in a simplistic way.

She has the look of a femme fatale. Pay attention and LOOK at the link I provided.

You misinterpret what I'm saying. She was involved with Jacob for a short time. She keeps promises because that's who she is. You can tell that she cares about Jacob when she looks at him at the debriefing. That look on her face tells you she cares.

I have no doubt that she's had past relationships, but not even Jacob could change the way she acted.

That's what I mean.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 01:54 .