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[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have no doubt that she's had past relationships, but not even Jacob could change the way she acted.

That's what I mean.

First let me say that I have enjoyed the spirited discussion

Basically, the idea I am trying to get across is not that Miranda's relationship with Shepard is not special to her, or important to her. It is, for more or less the reasons you state.

My point is more that characters all correspond to certain archetypes, but they can either be *reduced* to a simplistic version of that archetype, or they can *evolve* to be more fully fleshed out characters.

Distinctions of this type *are* important because, ultimately, they determine whether characterisation is good and interesting, or boring and stale. (Nobody is going to invent any new archetypes any time soon).

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
She has the look of a femme fatale. Pay attention and LOOK at the link I provided.

So? She looks like one and then acts in a much more complex and interesting manner that doesn't match the archetype of the femme fatale.
I call that good writing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2012 - 02:00 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have no doubt that she's had past relationships, but not even Jacob could change the way she acted.

That's what I mean.

First let me say that I have enjoyed the spirited discussion

Basically, the idea I am trying to get across is not that Miranda's relationship with Shepard is not special to her, or important to her. It is, for more or less the reasons you state.

My point is more that characters all correspond to certain archetypes, but they can either be *reduced* to a simplistic version of that archetype, or they can *evolve* to be more fully fleshed out characters.

All the LIs from ME2 are reduced in ME3. It also depends on how you interpret the characters. I can't help that Mac Walters has a hard-on for Liara.

Miranda is far more complex than the other ME characters, but when using basic character analysis methods, she begins to look more and more human. That was the revelation to me at least. She isn't as tough as she puts on, that's the facade. But that doesn't neuter (spay?) the character for me. That reveals more depth. Showing she's human makes her more three dimensional.

That's what I wish to stress.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda is far more complex than the other ME characters, but when using basic character analysis methods, she begins to look more and more human. That was the revelation to me at least. She isn't as tough as she puts on, that's the facade. But that doesn't neuter (spay?) the character for me. That reveals more depth. Showing she's human makes her more three dimensional.

That's what I wish to stress.

I don't disagree with the idea that, over the course of ME2, the Loyalty Mission and the romance make Miranda a deeper character.

On the contrary, I wholeheartedly agree. If they weren't there, we'd have a much simpler character, and, imo, a much less interesting one.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda is far more complex than the other ME characters, but when using basic character analysis methods, she begins to look more and more human. That was the revelation to me at least. She isn't as tough as she puts on, that's the facade. But that doesn't neuter (spay?) the character for me. That reveals more depth. Showing she's human makes her more three dimensional.

That's what I wish to stress.

I don't disagree with the idea that, over the course of ME2, the Loyalty Mission and the romance make Miranda a deeper character.

On the contrary, I wholeheartedly agree. If they weren't there, we'd have a much simpler character, and, imo, a much less interesting one.

I see that advancement as a good thing, because Shepard makes a person's life better.

They can adopt you know, seeing as there are going to be plenty of orphans around. Her being infertile doesn't make me think any less of her.

Also, from what I understand, the person you want to speak to about Miranda is Michael Gamble, as he romanced her in his game and stayed true so to speak.

We need some Cerberus DLC.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They can adopt you know, seeing as there are going to be plenty of orphans around. Her being infertile doesn't make me think any less of her.

Indeed, no.

But the infertility itself is not an issue. Handled correctly, it could even be a very positive aspect of the character imo.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[dtrain24]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They can adopt you know, seeing as there are going to be plenty of orphans around. Her being infertile doesn't make me think any less of her.

Indeed, no.

But the infertility itself is not an issue. Handled correctly, it could even be a very positive aspect of the character imo.

Well, here's my opinion on Miranda and Shepard having a baby.
If Miranda can't get the infertility cured  with tech that could rise Shepard from dead, make or break the genophage, etc, then that would be bull.
But an interesting thing would be is if Miranda and Shepard combined genes into a child in a birth similar to Miranda's. It would be the ultimate acceptance for Miranda and would finally be truly proud of her gifts.

[Skullheart]

Ehh.... any of the regulars went to the Liara thread?


and about Miranda's infertility, it could be cured with the research from the lazarus project (reanimating a brain, tissue regenertion, etc). She resurrected Shepard, curing her little problem is a child's game compared to that. I bet a 5 years old Miranda could cure the cancer in our time.

Modifié par Skullheart, 19 juin 2012 - 02:29 .

[jtav]

Yeah, the issue is that they bogged Miranda down in cliches. They turned a character I loved into a character I hated. The infertility exists for pity. Imagine if it had been a catalyst for growth as she realized the only way she'd have biological children was to create them. Or to make her have conversations with Eve. But they didn't do that.

What happened to the girl with ideas?

[Skullheart]

Hudson, Walters and Watamaniuk happened...

[flemm]

dtrain24 wrote...
But an interesting thing would be is if Miranda and Shepard combined genes into a child in a birth similar to Miranda's. It would be the ultimate acceptance for Miranda and would finally be truly proud of her gifts.

Yes, it would

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 02:33 .

[o Ventus]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

Screw Cerberous DLC, Cerberous gay sucks they would been better but From Creedy Childish TIM. Miranda is a good character, I liked her better in Mass Effect 2. I'm though not a fan of half of Mass Effect 2 characters. I respect most characters should have something but Stop Hating on other Charscters and Fans. Yes I'm a proud Liaramancer. ^^

You told me via PM that you hated Miranda, and that the ME3 characters all sucked.

So you're a hypocrite.

[iHorizons]

You are so overly dramatic jtav

[dtrain24]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

Screw Cerberous DLC, Cerberous gay sucks they would been better but From Creedy Childish TIM. Miranda is a good character, I liked her better in Mass Effect 2. I'm though not a fan of half of Mass Effect 2 characters. I respect most characters should have something but Stop Hating on other Charscters and Fans. Yes I'm a proud Liaramancer. ^^

Where are we hating on other characters and fans?
Yeah, you're a proud Liaramancer, good for you, not sure why you had to add that.
Can you tell us what brought this post on? Seems totally random to me.

[dtrain24]

flemm wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...
But an interesting thing would be is if Miranda and Shepard combined genes into a child in a birth similar to Miranda's. It would be the ultimate acceptance for Miranda and would finally be truly proud of her gifts.

Yes, it would

And Shepard's the right guy to talk her into it being the right thing.

[flemm]

dtrain24 wrote...

And Shepard's the right guy to talk her into it being the right thing.

Yep. The funny part about the whole infertility thing is that, in effect, it makes Miranda more fertile than ever.

(From a storytelling standpoint, I mean.)

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 02:51 .

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Yeah, the issue is that they bogged Miranda down in cliches. They turned a character I loved into a character I hated. The infertility exists for pity. Imagine if it had been a catalyst for growth as she realized the only way she'd have biological children was to create them. Or to make her have conversations with Eve. But they didn't do that.

What happened to the girl with ideas?

They can still do that. Have you considered the idea that maybe she hasn't told many people about this? Being infertile would be devastating to any woman. I'd imagine she doesn't like to talk about it all that much.

With Shepard's help, someday, that issue may be resolved.

It isn't a cliche because we can understand WHY she wouldn't talk about it with previously established information.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 02:53 .

[Babi_Siha]

dtrain24 wrote...

flemm wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...
But an interesting thing would be is if Miranda and Shepard combined genes into a child in a birth similar to Miranda's. It would be the ultimate acceptance for Miranda and would finally be truly proud of her gifts.

Yes, it would

And Shepard's the right guy to talk her into it being the right thing.

That's how I always saw them starting a family. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this acceptable.

[dtrain24]

Babi_Siha wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

flemm wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...
But an interesting thing would be is if Miranda and Shepard combined genes into a child in a birth similar to Miranda's. It would be the ultimate acceptance for Miranda and would finally be truly proud of her gifts.

Yes, it would

And Shepard's the right guy to talk her into it being the right thing.

That's how I always saw them starting a family. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this acceptable.

Either of the two methods I listed above would be acceptable to me. Because they both cast Miranda in a good light.
Fixing her infertility is yet another testament to how medically savvy she is and having the baby normally afterall.
Meanwhile, genetic crossings would do her character development justice, as I mentioned above.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They can still do that.

Yes, they absolutely can. They haven't yet, though.

As to infertility being devastating to any woman, well, many women say otherwise. Indifferent? Maybe not. But devastated? Nope. Because, for many women, having children is not a big priority. Or only one of many priorities.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 03:06 .

[Taboo]

I would think having the baby normally would be more appropriate for her.

Regular, in utero, nine months gestation.

No tubes.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They can still do that.

Yes, they absolutely can. They haven't yet, though.

As to infertility being devastating to any woman, well, many women say otherwise. Indifferent? Maybe not. But devasted? Nope. Because, for many women, having children is not a big priority.

Who have you been talking to? Have you ever had a relationship? Have you ever talked to a woman on this subject?

Having a child is a basic function. Primal. Have you ever done research on this topic?

What you've said is patently untrue. I'm sorry for being so blunt but such things are so traumatic they have therapist designated specifically for women who are infertile.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 03:08 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

What you've said is patently untrue. I'm sorry for being so blunt but such things are so traumatic they have therapist designated specifically for women who are infertile.

It *can* be difficult. But you are overgeneralizing. It is not always, nor is it necessarily so.

This is an example of a stereotype. There are therapists for women who are infertile, but not all infertile women need therapy to cope with their infertility. Big difference.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 03:13 .

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would think having the baby normally would be more appropriate for her.

Regular, in utero, nine months gestation.

No tubes.

Makes me wonder how you'll take Chapter 4 of Salvation then.