82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would think having the baby normally would be more appropriate for her.

Regular, in utero, nine months gestation.

No tubes.

Makes me wonder how you'll take Chapter 4 of Salvation then.

Your story is your story.

Your version of Miranda is not my version.

I can't take that away from you, nor will I judge you for it.

[jtav]

Precisely, flemm. I'm female, I don't want children. I know many women who are childless by choice, Happy women. I believe Miranda wants children, and I have no problem with that. I object to the implication that she never really wanted anything but a family in LOTSB and ME3.

[Taboo]

I know many women who want children. I also know who who do not. You cannot make an assessment based on who you are and who you know. This is a fallacy. See how this works?

You'd need to take a survey.

Miranda wants a child. Not being able to have one would be devastating. As it would be to any woman who wanted one.

Yes?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 03:23 .

[iHorizons]

What kind of Miranda DLC would you guys like to see in ME3?

[dtrain24]

iHorizons wrote...

What kind of Miranda DLC would you guys like to see in ME3?

My priorites are a
-Reuinion and closure to the Romance (Including Miranda on the Normandy)
-Miranda helping Shepard take down Cerberus as a squadmate and getting feedback from her on the organization. I want to hear what Miranda has to say about Cerberus, and her thought on taking it down.

Modifié par dtrain24, 19 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Miranda wants a child. Not being able to have one would be devastating. As it would be to any woman who wanted one.

Yes?

There's an important idea here that I want to begin with.


Miranda is not an actual woman (with psychology and everything).


She is a fictional construct. Fictional constructs do not *want* things. What they do is have meaning.

So, the infertility itself is neutral, really, it's what it means that is important. As we've already discussed, it could be used to mean all kinds of different things. Some very interesting, some stupid and insulting. Or anywhere in between.

As introduced in ME2, Miranda expresses no desire to have children, and she is not infertile. On the other hand, she expresses a whole variety of other interests and concerns.

Introducing simultaneously the following ideas, namely that (1) Miranda wants to have children, (2) Miranda never really cared about anything else and (3) Miranda's genetic engineering renders her incapable of having children and thus fulfilling her only true desire, is of the stupid and insulting variety because it plays into all manner of misogynistic stereotypes, as well as being symptomatic of a reactionary mentality with regard to Miranda's origins (i.e. she should not reproduce because she is not *natural*).

Note that #1 is not stupid or insulting. Miranda wanting to have children is *not*, in itself, problematic at all. It is the *combination* that is stupid and insulting.

At least it is unless one wants Miranda to be about how women cannot be happy unless they have children and genetic engineering is evil. Or something 

Because that is what matters. Not: what does Miranda want? But rather: what does this character mean?

Modifié par flemm, 19 juin 2012 - 05:55 .

[Skullheart]

A DLC with a TIW possible scenario...

[fiendishchicken]

All this talk of Eugenics for Miranda, reminds me of the film Gattaca. Anyone seen it?

[dtrain24]

Here's some music for you to enjoy from the ME2 OST.
Also a testament to Miranda's awesomeness.

[o Ventus]

I love that music.

I think the Suicide Mission theme is my favorite from ME2.

[dtrain24]

o Ventus wrote...

I love that music.

I think the Suicide Mission theme is my favorite from ME2.

Suicide Mission is my favorite video game song ever.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Precisely, flemm. I'm female, I don't want children. I know many women who are childless by choice, Happy women. I believe Miranda wants children, and I have no problem with that. I object to the implication that she never really wanted anything but a family in LOTSB and ME3.

There is no such implication. Even were I to concede this straw-grasping interpretation of the dossier, there is no evidence that she only wants a family.

There may be some things in ME3 that suggest she wants a family and a "normal" life but nowhere does it imply that is her only priority.

[flemm]

fiendishchicken wrote...

All this talk of Eugenics for Miranda, reminds me of the film Gattaca. Anyone seen it?

Yeah, interesting stuff

[Dr. Doctor]

fiendishchicken wrote...

All this talk of Eugenics for Miranda, reminds me of the film Gattaca. Anyone seen it?

Really good sci-fi film.

 What really bugged me is that Henry Lawson just goes flying out a window after a few audio logs. Why did he want to create a "dynasty"? What happened to all of his daughters who he didn't keep? 

[Jonathan Sud]

ENorman94 wrote...

Anyone watch the new machinima video about Miranda...its not funny -__-

Sorry to dissapoint

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 What really bugged me is that Henry Lawson just goes flying out a window after a few audio logs. Why did he want to create a "dynasty"? What happened to all of his daughters who he didn't keep? 

Yeah, it would have been good to find out more. On the "dynasty" subject, it is noteworthy that he talked about being the savior of the entire human race (I guess by allowing the Reapers to be controlled). So... that's a little something new.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 What really bugged me is that Henry Lawson just goes flying out a window after a few audio logs. Why did he want to create a "dynasty"? What happened to all of his daughters who he didn't keep? 

Yeah, it would have been good to find out more. On the "dynasty" subject, it is noteworthy that he talked about being the savior of the entire human race (I guess by allowing the Reapers to be controlled). So... that's a little something new.

Well, from it we can, at least, infer he wanted to be hailed as a savior.
This leads to the following question: Was his work on genetic manipulation meant to have an effect on human society as a whole or did he simply want his dynasty to stand above the inferior human beings? Whatever the case, we can safely say what motivated Henry beyond anything else was his ego.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[hot_heart]

I tend not to take the SB dossier too seriously. It seems designed more to inform her character rather than define it. A lot of the stuff is just little asides (Grunt and Hemingway).

Considering who she is, she's never gonna go, "Oh, by the way, I can't have kids." Instead, it reinforces her mothering nature towards Oriana, though even then she has to keep her distance. And she's not exactly overbearing in her wants for Oriana. A 'normal life' is more like 'free from her father's control or a dangerous life with Cerberus'.

Of course, that doesn't stop the existence of that terrible bit of dialogue from the death scene...

p.s. small peeve of mine, MisterJB, but 'character assassination' does not mean what you think it means. It is just 'poor/inconsistent characterisation'

Modifié par hot_heart, 19 juin 2012 - 08:51 .

[hot_heart]

Oh, and I'll throw out a question just for the sake of it.

Would you have liked Miranda's role similar to that of Mordin and Legion, even with her sacrifice as part of the most 'profitable' outcome?

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda wants a child. Not being able to have one would be devastating. As it would be to any woman who wanted one.

Yes?

There's an important idea here that I want to begin with.


Miranda is not an actual woman (with psychology and everything).


She is a fictional construct. Fictional constructs do not *want* things. What they do is have meaning.

So, the infertility itself is neutral, really, it's what it means that is important. As we've already discussed, it could be used to mean all kinds of different things. Some very interesting, some stupid and insulting. Or anywhere in between.

As introduced in ME2, Miranda expresses no desire to have children, and she is not infertile. On the other hand, she expresses a whole variety of other interests and concerns.

Introducing simultaneously the following ideas, namely that (1) Miranda wants to have children, (2) Miranda never really cared about anything else and (3) Miranda's genetic engineering renders her incapable of having children and thus fulfilling her only true desire, is of the stupid and insulting variety because it plays into all manner of misogynistic stereotypes, as well as being symptomatic of a reactionary mentality with regard to Miranda's origins (i.e. she should not reproduce because she is not *natural*).

Note that #1 is not stupid or insulting. Miranda wanting to have children is *not*, in itself, problematic at all. It is the *combination* that is stupid and insulting.

At least it is unless one wants Miranda to be about how women cannot be happy unless they have children and genetic engineering is evil. Or something 

Because that is what matters. Not: what does Miranda want? But rather: what does this character mean?

This needs to be emphasized (Boldened and italicized part). I recall I've had a few choice words to someone who expressed that mentality in the second thread last year, basically saying that any woman who didn't care about being infertile was abnormal.

And story-wise it would be a great deal more interesting if Miranda could only have a child using methods similar to her fathers' when he created her genetic pattern. Any child could be genetically identical to one conceived normally, only getting here would be different. Of course it wouldn't necessarily end there. I'd make any children inherit Miranda's intelligence, longevity, superior healing and mind/body coordination. If I were Shepard, I'd gladly accept 10% less of me in the child in order to get that, and I consider that a completely natural sentiment. Who doesn't want the best for their children?

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...
Oh, and I'll throw out a question just for the sake of it.

Would you have liked Miranda's role similar to that of Mordin and Legion, even with her sacrifice as part of the most 'profitable' outcome?

That would depend on the kind of benefit her sacrifice gave us. I would hate even the remotest hint of "redemption equals death". In the end, I'd say no to the idea. I can accept Shepard's sacrifice, but I wouldn't want Miranda's.

[Terrorize69]

So I'm playing ME2, not far in on my Mirmancer, still before Horizon. Jacob and Shepard have a chat where the option to talk about his past relationship with Miranda.

You then get the option to tell him you're interested in her. Does this pop up again later? With either Jacob or maybe Miranda mentions the chat?

[Ieldra]

Terrorize69 wrote...
So I'm playing ME2, not far in on my Mirmancer, still before Horizon. Jacob and Shepard have a chat where the option to talk about his past relationship with Miranda.

You then get the option to tell him you're interested in her. Does this pop up again later? With either Jacob or maybe Miranda mentions the chat?

No, Miranda won't mention it. Nor will she mention her past with Jacob to Shepard in any way. Miranda and Jacob make oblique references to their past together after in the debriefing of Jacob's loyalty mission, but that's it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juin 2012 - 01:01 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

This needs to be emphasized (Boldened and italicized part). I recall I've had a few choice words to someone who expressed that mentality in the second thread last year, basically saying that any woman who didn't care about being infertile was abnormal.

Stop twisting my words.
I was refering to an infertility that is caused by an health issue (which is Miranda's case). And yes, my opinion is that I think people should care about ANY health prolems they have and try to find a solution (if there is one). I have the same opinion about men and women. So, don't you dare call me a misogynist.

If a woman want to stay infertile, it's her choice and I respect it. But if it's at the expense of her health, I don't think it's a reasonable decision.

Modifié par Yannkee, 19 juin 2012 - 01:23 .

[jtav]

If Henry had ever made his process available to the public, people would have been lining up around the block. It worries me from an ethical standpoint for OT reasons, but having smarter, healthier kids is a good thing.

This kind of got buried last night, so let me ask again. Can you see Miranda being the one in pursuit of a romance? Because for the life of me, I can't think of a reason for her not to sleep with Matt once she decides she wants to. He's the one with more to doubt and fear. Details available on request.