Obvakhi wrote...
Does Miranda not appear in the Destroy ending if you didn't romance her? I can't recall.
I know in Control she's with Oriana, in Synthesis she appears to be working with the Alliance now.
CrutchCricket wrote...
You keep saying that but I don't remember the council being particularly tyrannical (stupid, complacent and ineffective do not a tyrant make) or Miranda being particularly anti-council (just anti-stupidity, anti-complacency etc etc)
It's kind of a needless detail, really. It would have to be almost infathomably small and camoflaged in order for Leng to not notice it, at which point we wouldn't see it either. I hardly think it was laziness on Bioware's part.Mr Massakka wrote...
No, I don't know that hot_heart.
I don't even have the app... just did wiki-research
Also never saw a tracer on Leng. As if they would really add such details... I never had the feeling ME3 was that whole-heartly executed.
Modifié par JeanLuc761, 28 juin 2012 - 04:01 .
RenegadeReaperShepard speaks of becoming a powerful leader that will end the bickering of the many.CrutchCricket wrote...
The "policies" of the leader? You think it's gonna lay down bi-laws or something? Even the Renegade isn't going to micro-manage like that.
A man has no purpose other than survive and reproduce and anything he chooses to give himself. However, ReaperShepard was born with a purpose that Shepard once gave himself. There is not suggestion it intends or even can go against it.No in-universe evidence, just logic. It's a higher intelligence with the entire universe before it. A man isn't going to spend his whole life ruling or protecting microbes, and this thing is going to care even less about us.
They passed laws that the "lesser species" had to follow without having a say in their approval. I also remember an instance where they threatened to bomb civillian quarians if they would not give their new homeworld to the elcor.You keep saying that but I don't remember the council being particularly tyrannical (stupid, complacent and ineffective do not a tyrant make)
Miranda believed in humanity having a prohuman group in chagre of protecting and advancing the species. I really can't see her simply accepting the commands of a machine god.or Miranda being particularly anti-council (just anti-stupidity, anti-complacency etc etc)
Not to mention we don't actually see Kai Leng in between Miranda's fight with him and Shepard's on Cronos at which point he could have realized his mistake and removed it.JeanLuc761 wrote...
It's kind of a needless detail, really. It would have to be almost infathomably small and camoflaged in order for Leng to not notice it, at which point we wouldn't see it either. I hardly think it was laziness on Bioware's part.Mr Massakka wrote...
No, I don't know that hot_heart.
I don't even have the app... just did wiki-research
Also never saw a tracer on Leng. As if they would really add such details... I never had the feeling ME3 was that whole-heartly executed.
The quarians were booted from the Council at that point. They weren't subjects anymore. Not playing nice with a foreign power, or rather not taking in outside refugees does not make you a tyrant. Might make you a dick. Not the same thing though.hhh89 wrote...
How you would define the decision of refusing some garden planets to the quarian? The geth-quarian war in ME3 maybe wouldn't have happened.
"Bickering" will register to the mind of a machine god? I would think its definition of bickering would more akin to Rachni Wars/Krogan Rebellion one species goes on a killing spree against the others type of thing. You can argue principles and rights all you want but no one wants a new uprising.MisterJB wrote...
RenegadeReaperShepard speaks of becoming a powerful leader that will end the bickering of the many.
So yes, I do believe it will give orders and expect them to be obeyed and those who don't will come to regret it.
A man gives himself purpose but that purpose can be self-modified. If a man can do it, you really think this thing can't? It is not as bound as the programmed AI the holokid turned out to be.A man has no purpose other than survive and reproduce and anything he chooses to give himself. However, ReaperShepard was born with a purpose that Shepard once gave himself. There is not suggestion it intends or even can go against it.
Without a say? Any member species can bring their concerns to the council. I'd call that a say. As for the quarians, I believe I already addressed this point.They passed laws that the "lesser species" had to follow without having a say in their approval. I also remember an instance where they threatened to bomb civillian quarians if they would not give their new homeworld to the elcor.
They are tyrants.
Again, you're assuming the machine god will say things like "thou shalt take out the trash on Tuesdays!" And I don't think anyone answered my question about Shepard being played as pro-human. If the machine god favored humanity, you still think she'd tell him to **** off?Miranda believed in humanity having a prohuman group in chagre of protecting and advancing the species. I really can't see her simply accepting the commands of a machine god.
Modifié par CrutchCricket, 28 juin 2012 - 04:15 .
jtav wrote...
It probably does appeal to casual fans...
Modifié par flemm, 28 juin 2012 - 04:23 .
Apparently.CrutchCricket wrote...
"Bickering" will register to the mind of a machine god? I would think its definition of bickering would more akin to Rachni Wars/Krogan Rebellion one species goes on a killing spree against the others type of thing. You can argue principles and rights all you want but no one wants a new uprising.
I don't think we know enough to tell how its mind works. As of now, it appears content in following Shepard's purpose. That could change but without further evidence, I can't consider it an inevitability like you do.A man gives himself purpose but that purpose can be self-modified. If a man can do it, you really think this thing can't? It is not as bound as the programmed AI the holokid turned out to be.
Concerns that the Council can simply dismiss unless the concerned party is a powerhouse like humanity. They have the strongest fleet and economy. Unless they give the right to the embassies to vote, it's a tyranny.Without a say? Any member species can bring their concerns to the council. I'd call that a say. As for the quarians, I believe I already addressed this point.
Is that not what a leader does?Again, you're assuming the machine god will say things like "thou shalt take out the trash on Tuesdays!" And I don't think anyone answered my question about Shepard being played as pro-human. If the machine god favored humanity, you still think she'd tell him to **** off?
flemm wrote...
jtav wrote...
It probably does appeal to casual fans...
I think you're probably underestimating casual fans, or at least over-generalizing about them.
*I'm* a casual fan, for one thing
Or was until they started messing with my favorite
Plus all the time we see people stop by, post once, and basically say: Ummm.... Cerberus?
But as to the "different appeal than intended" thing, I think that is probably true to a significant degree. The created will always rebel against their creators
but we all know why! That bastard of a father. Wow... quarians and the Geth... what else? I see a pattern. Now, this starbrat and the his creator... so what does bratchild do, rebel. I think it was the original creators fault all along? We did develop along their path. Their path is flawed. Needs to be broken. I was always in favor of that line Shepard said to the starbrat. Something like. "We should be allowed to develop on our own..." I think the other races influenced or maybe even forced them to much with their own ideas. 
Protheans with the Asari... for example. Salarians with the Krogan... what else?
Obvakhi wrote...
Obvakhi wrote...
Does Miranda not appear in the Destroy ending if you didn't romance her? I can't recall.
I know in Control she's with Oriana, in Synthesis she appears to be working with the Alliance now.
Looks like my post got totally ignored. But flemm's post answers it, not sure if that was intentional or not.
Taboo-XX wrote...
I saw the Miranda slide when I picked Destroy. She's looking up at the sky with the sun shining through, her hands clasped together.
"Through my birth, his thoughts are freed." Seems like an odd choice of words if it were shackled. It can self-modify. And I maintain that because of its advanced perspective, organics will seem trivial to it and it will eventually not care.MisterJB wrote...
I don't think we know enough to tell how its mind works. As of now, it appears content in following Shepard's purpose. That could change but without further evidence, I can't consider it an inevitability like you do.
No, it's an oligarchy. Tyranny refers to arbitrary abuse of unchallengable power which you have yet to prove. And don't say Spectres. They're only sent in after all other options have proven ineffective.Concerns that the Council can simply dismiss unless the concerned party is a powerhouse like humanity. They have the strongest fleet and economy. Unless they give the right to the embassies to vote, it's a tyranny.
The Council even has its own Gestapo. (Godwin's law)
No argument there as long as "can" doesn't become "will"Miranda seems to support a meritocracy. However, pro-humanity can lead to things like Sanctuary in which case she would act.
hot_heart wrote...
All this talk of the epilogue slides, I completely forgot...WHAT HAPPENED TO MY ROBOT DOG?!
lol most useless thing ever. Couldn't even rename it.hot_heart wrote...
All this talk of the epilogue slides, I completely forgot...WHAT HAPPENED TO MY ROBOT DOG?!
CrutchCricket wrote...
"Through my birth, his thoughts are freed." Seems like an odd choice of words if it were shackled. It can self-modify. And I maintain that because of its advanced perspective, organics will seem trivial to it and it will eventually not care.MisterJB wrote...
I don't think we know enough to tell how its mind works. As of now, it appears content in following Shepard's purpose. That could change but without further evidence, I can't consider it an inevitability like you do.No, it's an oligarchy. Tyranny refers to arbitrary abuse of unchallengable power which you have yet to prove. And don't say Spectres. They're only sent in after all other options have proven ineffective.Concerns that the Council can simply dismiss unless the concerned party is a powerhouse like humanity. They have the strongest fleet and economy. Unless they give the right to the embassies to vote, it's a tyranny.
The Council even has its own Gestapo. (Godwin's law)
No argument there as long as "can" doesn't become "will"Miranda seems to support a meritocracy. However, pro-humanity can lead to things like Sanctuary in which case she would act.
Modifié par fiendishchicken, 28 juin 2012 - 05:10 .
Another possibility is that it might come to the conclusion that while organic life can seem minuscule when compared to the Cosmos, it is impossible to truly give an objective value to something like a planet, that a star burns without a true purpose and thus, only sentients are capable of giving value and purpose to the galaxy making them the most important beings in creation.CrutchCricket wrote...
"Through my birth, his thoughts are freed." Seems like an odd choice of words if it were shackled. It can self-modify. And I maintain that because of its advanced perspective, organics will seem trivial to it and it will eventually not care.
An oligarchy can be tyranicall if it places itself above its citizens. The Council is biased to their own three races.No, it's an oligarchy. Tyranny refers to arbitrary abuse of unchallengable power which you have yet to prove. And don't say Spectres. They're only sent in after all other options have proven ineffective.
I make mine your words regarding ReaperShepard's indifference.No argument there as long as "can" doesn't become "will"
No he concluded that each birth is a "thermodynamic miracle", something he's been wanting to see but hasn't yet. Therefore he concludes all life is precious because it regularly does the seemingly impossible (according to his definitions) by being born. He still leaves to "create some" meaning he sees the value in life but not necessarily in sentient (human) life. Commander is different from from Manhattan though so it's difficult to say what conclusions it'll come to. But I think that level of indifference and disconnect will happen regardless.MisterJB wrote...
Another possibility is that it might come to the conclusion that while organic life can seem minuscule when compared to the Cosmos, it is impossible to truly give an objective value to something like a planet, that a star burns without a true purpose and thus, only sentients are capable of giving value and purpose to the galaxy making them the most important beings in creation.
Even Dr. Manhattan reached a similar conclusion if I remember correctly.
"Can" is not being discussed her. Has the council regularly abused its power arbitrarily to the possible detriment/oppression of its subjects? And let's consider the whole timeline here, humanity has a spot now, and a Spectre. Bias does not equal abuse.An oligarchy can be tyranicall if it places itself above its citizens. The Council is biased to their own three races.
When Spectres are sent in doesn't matter. They purpose is to maintain the status quo, that is, turians, salarians and asari in power.
Different matters on altogether different scales. An ant may or may not build a mound at a location. A sane human would not live among ants and attempt to dominate or protect them (at least not for very long).I make mine your words regarding ReaperShepard's indifference.
Without restrains like emotions, ReaperShepard is likely to commit things organics would consider attrocities.
The potential's there of course. And if they are being used as such, that is an abuse of power by the Council. We're agreeing with the theory.fiendishchicken wrote...
In theory, the spectres are used to maintain stability and peace. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're used more as a clean up crew for the 3 council races (I omit Shepard and humanity because he wouldn't stand for it, and until the VS, he's the only human spectre) and I wouldn't be surprised if they were also used to "encourage" dissident factions or races to fall in line. The Spectres are indeed like the SS and Gestapo.
CrutchCricket wrote...
The potential's there of course. And if they are being used as such, that is an abuse of power by the Council. We're agreeing with the theory.fiendishchicken wrote...
In theory, the spectres are used to maintain stability and peace. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're used more as a clean up crew for the 3 council races (I omit Shepard and humanity because he wouldn't stand for it, and until the VS, he's the only human spectre) and I wouldn't be surprised if they were also used to "encourage" dissident factions or races to fall in line. The Spectres are indeed like the SS and Gestapo.
Question is have they done so? If yes these were tyrannical actions. If no, tyranny does not play into it.
Their indifference towards the plight of their subjects has caused billions of death during the Morning War (the quarians were an embassy race at the time) and millions when the Collectors and Geth attacked humanity.CrutchCricket wrote...
"Can" is not being discussed her. Has the council regularly abused its power arbitrarily to the possible detriment/oppression of its subjects? And let's consider the whole timeline here, humanity has a spot now, and a Spectre. Bias does not equal abuse.
Humans have done both towards Earth's fauna for a long time. And a human has never been an ant. However, ReaperShepard used to be human which would influence its actions.Different matters on altogether different scales. An ant may or may not build a mound at a location. A sane human would not live among ants and attempt to dominate or protect them (at least not for very long).
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