82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I don't think it's Liara as much as it is Miranda being the type that is usually killed off: the tragic figure who dies because of her villainy, even though we can see basic goodness. Trouble is: we never actually see her doing anything bad. She can be rude, but she's heroic. I'd have made her death a triumph: Leng kills her, but she wins and her vision of Cerberus is vindicated.
.

[Ieldra]

As much as I dislike Miranda's character mutilation in ME3, a forced death would have been worse. I can live with Shepard's death, but Miranda's death would have removed all desire to replay the games again, as it would have sent a message I despise. Much as the dark age theme of the original endings almost killed it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:01 .

[jtav]

I don't mind Miranda dying. I mind the suggestion that she should be pitied. If she had been defiant, taunting Leng that she understands more about the duties of a Cerberus officer than he ever will, then I would have been okay with a forced death.

[o Ventus]

No. I have had all but two of my favorite characters killed off, with no way to subvert their deaths.

In a choice-based game, forced ANYTHING is bad.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Trouble is: we never actually see her doing anything bad. .

Yep. In fact there is even a scene where Miranda "confesses" her crimes. However, the writer is only able to come up with something that she *didn't do*. Ridiculous.

jtav wrote...
Why not have Leng gravely wound her even in a best-case scenario so that she needs extensive medical care?

That doesn't work because then it becomes impossible for her to just leave. That whole scenario at the end of sanctuary is a narrative crime, of course.

Modifié par flemm, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:23 .

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

Yep. In fact there is even a scene where Miranda "confesses" her crimes. However, the writer is only able to come up with something that she *didn't do*. Ridiculous.

I was half expecting them to reveal that Miranda was involved with the thorian creepers, husks, and rachni from ME1. It would be a nice throwback to the first game for the people who played those side missions, and it would show some of the ambiguity that ME3's Cerberderp is sorely lacking.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...
I was half expecting them to reveal that Miranda was involved with the thorian creepers, husks, and rachni from ME1. It would be a nice throwback to the first game for the people who played those side missions, and it would show some of the ambiguity that ME3's Cerberderp is sorely lacking.

The problem is, I think, that it's too late to make Miranda a villain retroactively. The writing in ME2 doesn't allow for that.

So, the main story outline is inspired by an archetype, not by Miranda (in terms of what makes her unique). It's the story of a villain redeeming herself for past evil, but that aspect is never really acknowledged. We're expected not to notice that she's being punished for crimes she didn't committ and in fact explicitly denies committing (conversation about Cerberus' ME1 experiments with Miranda in ME2).

There are things that have been grafted onto the story that are specific to Miranda (example: the whole discussion of the Lazarus project) but mostly her story in ME3 has nothing to do with her at all. Which is one of the things I like least about it.

Modifié par flemm, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:42 .

[jtav]

An interesting thing might have been to have the indoc implants be based off Lazarus. So Miranda is simultaneously the creator of humanity's best hope and greatest betrayal. She atones by seeking to bring down those who corrupted her work.

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
I was half expecting them to reveal that Miranda was involved with the thorian creepers, husks, and rachni from ME1. It would be a nice throwback to the first game for the people who played those side missions, and it would show some of the ambiguity that ME3's Cerberderp is sorely lacking.

The problem is, I think, that it's too late to make Miranda a villain retroactively. The writing in ME2 doesn't allow for that.

So, the main story outline is inspired by an archetype, not by Miranda (in terms of what makes her unique). It's the story of a villain redeeming herself for past evil, but that aspect is never really acknowledged. We're expected not to notice that she's being punished for crimes she didn't committ and in fact explicitly denies committing (conversation about Cerberus' ME1 experiments with Miranda in ME2).

There are things that have been grafted onto the story that are specific to Miranda (example: the whole discussion of the Lazarus project) but mostly her story in ME3 has nothing to do with her at all. Which is one of the things I like least about it.

But she doesn't really try to deny anything in ME2, in fact she condones them and attempts to justify them to Shepard. The only thing she denies is any involvement she may or may not have had with Teltin.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

But she doesn't really try to deny anything in ME2, in fact she condones them and attempts to justify them to Shepard. The only thing she denies is any involvement she may or may not have had with Teltin.

Well, each case is a little different, but she denies involvement, denies that they are crimes, or claims that certain mistakes do not define Cerberus as a whole. She also compares certain lines being crossed to some of the things Shepard does (justifiably).

It's not the attitude of an evil/bad person anymore than, say... Mordin's attitude makes him evil/bad.

Modifié par flemm, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:49 .

[CrutchCricket]

Meh. I think ultimately Cerberus was too visible. Putting giant logos on all their stuff and then getting caught doing naughty things... not the best policy.

I wonder if TIM had a bit of a vanity streak. He wasn't doing it for show but he wanted people to watch...

[Caihn]

There are very few scenarios worst than what we already have, but Miranda forced death is one of them.

[jtav]

The end of ME2 Miranda's arc should have been twofold: defeating her father and finding or creating humanity's STG. The first, although badly done, is present. The second is absent. Hence why eveyone likes the slides. She's doing something. And you have to admit: the idea of fighting techno-God is badass.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

The end of ME2 Miranda's arc should have been twofold: defeating her father and finding or creating humanity's STG. The first, although badly done, is present. The second is absent. Hence why eveyone likes the slides.

Yeah, I think that's accurate. And defeating her father could/should probably be the catalyst for the second part. I think that's why Miranda's ME3 content feels so incomplete and why it's fairly easy to fix in one's mind simply by adding stuff.

[Caihn]

Mr Massakka wrote...
^^Reminds me of the dialogue on Mars when Shepard said "I think about what I might loose" ... and looks at Ashley. <_<
Happens too often that you can't choose what Shep cares for.

One of my major complaint in ME3 with the lack of Miranda content.
All the auto-dialogues and the forced choices .. this shepard is not my Shepard anymore.

Modifié par Yannkee, 04 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .

[o Ventus]

Yannkee wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...
^^Reminds me of the dialogue on Mars when Shepard said "I think about what I might loose" ... and looks at Ashley. <_<
Happens too often that you can't choose what Shep cares for.

One of my major complaint in ME3 with the lack of Miranda content.
All the auto-dialogues and the forced choices .. this shepard is not my Shepard anymore.

Agreed. At least most of my Shepard's are paragon oriented and the autodialogue doesn't force him to act OOC. Well, most of the time anyway.

But man, is it weird to see my massively Renegade douchebag Shepard being nice to everybody.

Modifié par o Ventus, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:15 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

You notice something, right? EVERY ME2 Character, if not played right, would have died in ME2. Then BiOWare branded them "Expendable" in ME3. Every single on of them. Why? The ME1 Characters were lees likely to die, with the Exception of Garrus (If he died in the SM), Tali (If she died in the SM, or on Rannoch), and the VS (If you Shoot Him/Her in the Coup). I mostly see Garrus and Tali as ME2 Characters, because I Played ME2 First. We have to work hard in order to make sure most of the ME2 Characters don't die in ME2. For Miri, there are many things that we can screw up which would result in her death. I for one would NEVER break up with Miri, but I still have a "Task" to fulfill to make sure she doesn't die, so this is forced. It sucks that we have to do all of this to make sure our ONLY LI doesn't die. That's not really fair for us. One of these days we may end up forgetting to do one of those things. I was worried when on Sanctuary. I knew Miri would Survive, but I was still worried about some bug. I don't know why I was nervous about a bug as well. I thought that even though I spoke to Miri all three times, AND that I had full Reputation, the game would have a glitch causing Miri to die. That was one of the Many things I worried about. Also, taking too long to get to the Tower. I felt that if you take your time in Sanctuary, Miri would die.

It's not fair that we have to work for Miri's Survival. It's like BiOWare telling us, "Yes! Miranda will be there, and the Romantic Relationship will Continue, but it will cost you." I damn catch! If Mac Walters was a Mirimancer, this would have been different.

BiOWare treats the ME2 Characters as if they are dead weight. At least WE have Jessica Merizan. At least she's SOMEONE in the BiOWare Company that Likes Miranda. What was the name of the person who Created Miri? The one who came up with the ideas for Miri? Concept, Story, ETC. Who was Miri's Creator? The Lead Designer/Creator/Director for Miri. The who was Specifically in charge of Creating Miri. Was it Mac Walters?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[flemm]

I think it was a group effort.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
explicitly denies committing (conversation about Cerberus' ME1 experiments with Miranda in ME2).

That is a conversation I absolutely love and not because Miranda denies Cerberus commited what we saw in ME1, but because Miranda shows Shepard and the player a different way of looking at it.
Love it!

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

flemm wrote...
explicitly denies committing (conversation about Cerberus' ME1 experiments with Miranda in ME2).

That is a conversation I absolutely love and not because Miranda denies Cerberus commited what we saw in ME1, but because Miranda shows Shepard and the player a different way of looking at it.
Love it!

It's true. My earlier statement was really too brief to be accurate. She presents a different vision of the organisation and what it is about, one that doesn't ignore the reality of the incidents Shepard mentions, but which denies that the organisation as a whole must be defined by them (or a certain outsider's view of them).

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Wait...that can't be right. Miri couldn't have been a Villain. She couldn't have been involved in such things. No.


Denying? Where the **** do you all come up with this crap? You trying to change a person's outlook on Miri as a Character or something?


Sometimes I regret coming to visit this Thread. Some of you say many damned negative things. Things that can end up twisting and confusing the mind.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:12 .

[CrutchCricket]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
You trying to change a person's outlook on Miri as a Character or something?

Dang, he's figured it out.

The whole point of this entire thread is to subtly influence your perceptions and manipulate you into not liking Miranda.

Learn that you are our puppet:bandit:

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

No....Miri cant be a Villain. She couldn't have been denying. She couldn't supported all those awful things. I guess she did believe what Cerberus stood for. I thought she only wanted Human Advancement. I thought she didn't like some of the experiments. No. I can't have my Outlook on Miri change this way! Damn you all. v____v




I don't want to see Miri as a Villain. I want to see Miri as I always have. But now you all confused me. Then why did she quit? TIM crossed the line, and she quit. No no nooo. ****!!!!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 04 juillet 2012 - 06:22 .

[hot_heart]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
No. I can't have my Outlook on Miri change this way! Damn you all. v____v

www.youtube.com/watch

[jtav]

She has to be a bit dodgy to get as high as she did. Saints don't become 2IC of terrorist organizations. I like that about her.