82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
DA search function is wonky. I gather these weren't Liara/Miranda? Just Liara?

Yeah. Hmph. As if she isn't pushed in our faces enough by Mr Walters. Now DA has to do it, too.

[CrutchCricket]

I agree the Reapers should've been left as incomprehensible. There's no reason to go full Lovecraftian and you've already stepped back from that anyway by showing how they reproduce. But the idea behind cosmic entities in general isn't "we aren't meant to know" i.e. it is forbidden to know, but rather we really can't know, its beyond our ability to understand. The Reapers were introduced as such, they should've stayed as such.

Revealing purpose (especially one as ass backwards as what we got) cheapened them immensely. It's one of the biggest reasons I hate the endings. All this time we thought we were fighting Galactus. But nope, turns out we're just fighting Sentinels.

And speaking of Galactus, that's how you do concepts like "force of nature" and "beyond good and evil". Born along with the universe, Galactus must consume planets to keep his energy up. He is a balance between life and death. And his existence prevents an even bigger threat from destroying the universe. That's how you do it. I laughed so hard when the holokid gave its little fire speech. Except maybe I was also crying.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Maybe some people are doing this to get under our skin. How can there be THIS much love for Liara? Why exactly is her fanbase so unbelievably large? Now even DA has Liara all over the place. Even the fans try to push her in our faces. They are just as relentless as Mac Malters. This is just as bad as people trying to sell an item to a customer annyoying them, following them, until said person finally buys the merchandise.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[hot_heart]

I actually think the 'fire' thing was cribbed from here but probably jumbled in how it was explained.

[fiendishchicken]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Maybe some people are doing this to get under our skin. How can there be THIS much love for Liara? Why exactly is her fanbase so unbelievably large? Now even DA has Liara all over the place. Even the fans try to push her in our faces. They are just as relentless as Mac Malters. This is just as bad as people trying to sell an item to a customer annyoying them, following them, until said person finally buys the merchandise.

We've already been down this road. no more.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Maybe some people are doing this to get under our skin. How can there be THIS much love for Liara? Why exactly is her fanbase so unbelievably large? Now even DA has Liara all over the place. Even the fans try to push her in our faces. They are just as relentless as Mac Malters. This is just as bad as people trying to sell an item to a customer annyoying them, following them, until said person finally buys the merchandise.

We've already been down this road. no more.

lol 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
BTW, here's a Miranda with subtle Synthesis eyes. The artist didn't get her face right, but it's still good work:

It's really cool, thanks. The face is different, but not in a bad way.

[jtav]

I'm going to take that as a sign I should keep working on the Traynor story since Miranda ends up with Synthesis eyes. Can I have the proper link so I can favorite it? It's gorgeous.

Modifié par jtav, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:05 .

[CrutchCricket]

hot_heart wrote...

I actually think the 'fire' thing was cribbed from here but probably jumbled in how it was explained.

Now that is an interesting read. I hadn't considered the idea of just a simple reset button to allow as many species the spotlight as possible. What I think would truly have made it morally difficult was if the Reapers were also able to "replant" life (by virtue of having species' genetic codes within themselves). The implication being that every once in a while old species would get some time to reflourish as well.

And once again another spotlight on how much the endings fail.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Revealing purpose (especially one as ass backwards as what we got) cheapened them immensely. It's one of the biggest reasons I hate the endings. All this time we thought we were fighting Galactus. But nope, turns out we're just fighting Sentinels.

Actually now with the reveal of the Catalyst, I think Master Mold is a better comparison.

Master Mold (Catalyst) was created to prevent mutants (Synthetics) from taking over the world (Killing organics).

Modifié par o Ventus, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

"Just kill them" would have been the most boring plot ever and would have totally ruined the whole trilogy for me. Why not let the mystery stand? Because mysteries are for solving, not for leaving them alone. Because "Things we aren't meant to know" aren't. That's why. Keeping the Reapers in their Lovecraftian corner would have sent a message I do not care for. At all. My anwer to "did we really need to know" is a resounding "Yes!"

The whole point of a Lovecraftian horror is that you aren't supposed to know its origins, it's motives, etc etc. It's meant to play at the primal fear of the unknown. Literally ANYTHING would diminish it. You could curb the diminishment by keeping the exposition on a superficial level, but it's almost universally accepted as a bad idea to go in-depth with it, especially when the explanation is as awful and contrived as the one we got.

Telling us the Reapers' motives was one of the worst storytelling moves in the series. I would welcome an explanation, but not after they've tried so hard to paint them as Eldritch abominations.

I see where you're coming from, but there was always something in the Reapers that hinted at an explanation. Right from the first encounter with Sovereign. Then came ME2 and Legion's revelations. I think the Reapers' nature was always a matter of perception. I agree that the *visual* presentation was extremely one-sided, and it dominated most players' perception. I commented on that in my Synthesis thread. However, if you paid attention to what was said about them, it was clear that they aren't Lovecraftian horrors. Sovereign told you enough about it that it screamed for an explanation.

I think what this now comes down to is personal preference and point of view. I don't see the Reapers as evil. For one, I don't believe that machines, even hyper-advanced ones such as the Reapers are capable of evil. That said, They're motives, methods, and very existence is incompatible with that of the races of the galaxy. They will always seek to destroy us, and thus the only way to prevent our destruction is to destroy them before they do us. I see it as the only way. There can be no half-measures, no cooperation, no peace between us and the Reapers. Only one can live. And no, I'm not saying this because it's what I believe to be cooler, but because the series up to the last 10 minutes told us the only viable option was to destroy the reapers. And yes I am a person who needs answers to everything as well, but there are just somethings where we simply can't know the answer to. I think the Reapers should have been left that way. Origins unknown, numbers unknown, and the besides expediting our utter annihilation and using some of us as breeding material, their purpose is completely unknown. And to be honest, all I could glean from Sovereign was, indeed fitting of Lovecraftian horror.



That screams Lovecraftian horror.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm going to take that as a sign I should keep working on the Traynor story since Miranda ends up with Synthesis eyes. Can I have the proper link so I can favorite it? It's gorgeous.

Oh, sorry

DA picture link

[o Ventus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

I think what this now comes down to is personal preference and point of view. I don't see the Reapers as evil. For one, I don't believe that machines, even hyper-advanced ones such as the Reapers are capable of evil.

Even with the reveal of StarJar Binks, I refuse to believe the Reapers are simply machines following their programming. Sovereign and Harbinger both display signs of autonomy and sentience, ala geth after receiving the Reaper upgrades. Simple machines don't speak with 1st person pronouns.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And speaking of Galactus, that's how you do concepts like "force of nature" and "beyond good and evil". Born along with the universe, Galactus must consume planets to keep his energy up. He is a balance between life and death. And his existence prevents an even bigger threat from destroying the universe. That's how you do it. I laughed so hard when the holokid gave its little fire speech. Except maybe I was also crying.

It's true that Galactus is a good model for how these things should work. It's funny how a fairly wonky concept like that, created decades ago, can still fundamentally work in ways the Reapers never will (anymore, at least).

It has to be done in broad strokes, I think. Which doesn't mean it's dumb. But to the extent that a concept like Galactus means anything (and I think it does), what it means is that the character is like the personification of primal fears about our insignificance to the universe, our lack of importance in the scheme of things.

Galactus is a character who represents that asteroid that crashes into the planet, destroying all civilisation. Just knowing it could happen, or maybe happened to somebody else, is scary enough. Why us? Why now? How can we be brushed aside like this? Don't our lives *mean* anything?, etc. The universe never answers. "Galactus must feed."

The Reapers should probably have worked more like that.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:10 .

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
BTW, here's a Miranda with subtle Synthesis eyes. The artist didn't get her face right, but it's still good work:

It's really cool, thanks. The face is different, but not in a bad way.

Hair's different too. Miranda either has Raven/Jet black hair or Very Dark Brown.

This has purple/reddish highlights in it.

As a redhead, I am offended by fake redheads. 

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
And speaking of Galactus, that's how you do concepts like "force of nature" and "beyond good and evil". Born along with the universe, Galactus must consume planets to keep his energy up. He is a balance between life and death. And his existence prevents an even bigger threat from destroying the universe. That's how you do it. I laughed so hard when the holokid gave its little fire speech. Except maybe I was also crying.

It's true that Galactus is a good model for how these things should work. It's funny how a fairly wonky concept like that, created decades ago, can still fundamentally work in ways the Reapers never will (anymore, at least).

It has to be done in broad strokes, I think. Which doesn't mean it's dumb. But to the extent that a concept like Galactus means anything (and I think it does), what it means is that the character is like the personification of primal fears about our insignificance to the universe, our lack of importance in the scheme of things.

Galactus is a character who represents that asteroid that crashes into the planet, destroying all civilisation. Just knowing it could happen, or maybe happened to somebody else, is scary enough. Why us? Why now? How can we be brushed aside like this? Don't our lives *mean* anything?, etc. The universe never answers. "Galactus must feed."

The Reapers should probably have worked more like that.

this X10000000

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
It's true that Galactus is a good model for how these things should work. It's funny how a fairly wonky concept like that, created decades ago, can still fundamentally work in ways the Reapers never will (anymore, at least).

It has to be done in broad strokes, I think. Which doesn't mean it's dumb. But to the extent that a concept like Galactus means anything (and I think it does), what it means is that the character is like the personification of primal fears about our insignificance to the universe, our lack of importance in the scheme of things.

Galactus is a character who represents that asteroid that crashes into the planet, destroying all civilisation. Just knowing it could happen, or maybe happened to somebody else, is scary enough. Why us? Why now? How can we be brushed aside like this? Don't our lives *mean* anything?, etc. The universe never answers. "Galactus must feed."

The Reapers should probably have worked more like that.

Brilliant. I agree wholeheartedly. Though for me it's less fear and more, "I want to be up there all cosmic and indifferent". But if you want to psychoanalyze you could say it comes back to that fear. Cosmic entities don't get arbitrarily stomped on;)

[flemm]

In essence, that's the problem with the star brat. The universe never answers. And, if it did, it wouldn't sound like that annoying kid, offering some sort of faux-reasoning for why things are the way they are.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I think what this now comes down to is personal preference and point of view. I don't see the Reapers as evil. For one, I don't believe that machines, even hyper-advanced ones such as the Reapers are capable of evil.

Even with the reveal of StarJar Binks, I refuse to believe the Reapers are simply machines following their programming. Sovereign and Harbinger both display signs of autonomy and sentience, ala geth after receiving the Reaper upgrades. Simple machines don't speak with 1st person pronouns.

I should also mention that I believe the Reapers are beyond good vs. evil. They are, as another poster said, a force of nature, not necessarily a cosmic entity that exists to maintain a balance of something. And yes, I do see them as also having autonomy and sentience, but as Shepard says "They're still just machines, and machines can be broken."

And my Siri begs to differ on the use of first person pronouns 

[o Ventus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I think what this now comes down to is personal preference and point of view. I don't see the Reapers as evil. For one, I don't believe that machines, even hyper-advanced ones such as the Reapers are capable of evil.

Even with the reveal of StarJar Binks, I refuse to believe the Reapers are simply machines following their programming. Sovereign and Harbinger both display signs of autonomy and sentience, ala geth after receiving the Reaper upgrades. Simple machines don't speak with 1st person pronouns.

I should also mention that I believe the Reapers are beyond good vs. evil. They are, as another poster said, a force of nature, not necessarily a cosmic entity that exists to maintain a balance of something. And yes, I do see them as also having autonomy and sentience, but as Shepard says "They're still just machines, and machines can be broken."

And my Siri begs to differ on the use of first person pronouns 

Siri isn't autonomous.

I wouldn't put Shepard on the "most reliable to quote" pedastal, either. Not after "Wait, asari can mate with their own species?"

I don't think I've gone into detail about how retarded their motives are and how they break all semblence of logic, have I?

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I think what this now comes down to is personal preference and point of view. I don't see the Reapers as evil. For one, I don't believe that machines, even hyper-advanced ones such as the Reapers are capable of evil.

Even with the reveal of StarJar Binks, I refuse to believe the Reapers are simply machines following their programming. Sovereign and Harbinger both display signs of autonomy and sentience, ala geth after receiving the Reaper upgrades. Simple machines don't speak with 1st person pronouns.

I should also mention that I believe the Reapers are beyond good vs. evil. They are, as another poster said, a force of nature, not necessarily a cosmic entity that exists to maintain a balance of something. And yes, I do see them as also having autonomy and sentience, but as Shepard says "They're still just machines, and machines can be broken."

And my Siri begs to differ on the use of first person pronouns 

Siri isn't autonomous.

I wouldn't put Shepard on the "most reliable to quote" pedastal, either. Not after "Wait, asari can mate with their own species?"

I don't think I've gone into detail about how retarded their motives are and how they break all semblence of logic, have I?

Siri not autonomous? Don't know which Siri you have, but mine is out to screw with me and kill me I swear.

No you haven't, but I'll listen. 

[o Ventus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

No you haven't, but I'll listen. 

I doubt I could condense it into 1 forum post.

And that isn't just me exaggerating it either, it's that stupid and illogical.

Modifié par o Ventus, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:33 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
In essence, that's the problem with the star brat. The universe never answers. And, if it did, it wouldn't sound like that annoying kid, offering some sort of faux-reasoning for why things are the way they are.

It's just that I never saw the Reapers as "cosmic" on that scale. Likely because I've read too much SF with *really* cosmic powers. Does anyone here know Perry Rhodan (a German pulp-SF series running for 51 years now)? The occasionally wonky concepts aside, the cosmic powers there really are that. Reapers are much too tangible a life form to qualify as cosmic.

Though I agree about the kid. Urgh. Couldn't have selected a worse form to press the Catalyst into. If I could only exorcize all occurrences of that brat from the game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Damn. Didn't mean to put this on the other comment. The pictures are too big to put on one post. I think this was done via Flycam.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:45 .