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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#57676
CrutchCricket

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Ieldra2 wrote...
It's just that I never saw the Reapers as "cosmic" on that scale. Likely because I've read too much SF with *really* cosmic powers. Does anyone here know Perry Rhodan (a German pulp-SF series running for 51 years now)? The occasionally wonky concepts aside, the cosmic powers there really are that. Reapers are much too tangible a life form to qualify as cosmic.

Why do you think that? Because they're physical?

Though I agree about the kid. Urgh. Couldn't have selected a worse form to press the Catalyst into. If I could only exorcize all occurrences of that brat from the game.

Hmm. I wonder if you could mod the game files and make the holokid's textures transparent, making it invisible. It's not really removing it but a disembodied voice might work wonders.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .


#57677
MisterJB

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flemm wrote...
It's true that Galactus is a good model for how these things should work. It's funny how a fairly wonky concept like that, created decades ago, can still fundamentally work in ways the Reapers never will (anymore, at least).

It has to be done in broad strokes, I think. Which doesn't mean it's dumb. But to the extent that a concept like Galactus means anything (and I think it does), what it means is that the character is like the personification of primal fears about our insignificance to the universe, our lack of importance in the scheme of things.

Galactus is a character who represents that asteroid that crashes into the planet, destroying all civilisation. Just knowing it could happen, or maybe happened to somebody else, is scary enough. Why us? Why now? How can we be brushed aside like this? Don't our lives *mean* anything?, etc. The universe never answers. "Galactus must feed."

The Reapers should probably have worked more like that.

That may work as a concept in a different media but not in a videogame and definitely not in Galactus as well who is defeated constantly. For this concept to work, then this personification must be as invicible and inevitable as death or magnetism. If it is not, if the protagonists discover a way of avoiding it, then the theme doesn't work and it is better if the story then focus on desmitifying these cosmic powers and either bringing them down to our level or raising us to theirs.

The former can work but the story will, inevitably, be terribly bleak and while that doesn't equate with bad writing; in fact, bleakness is what gives color to a story; the controversia over the originals endings show that videogames are not the best place to convey a story about the insignificance of life and the inevitability of death.
You play a game to win, afterall.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .


#57678
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...
It's just that I never saw the Reapers as "cosmic" on that scale.


They're sort of... borderline, I guess. However, I think their behavior (periodically culling organic life) is easier to assimilate to a cosmic force or natural law than it is to some sort of "practical" scheme. Something like the Reapers can't really "make sense" from that point of view, I don't think.

MisterJB wrote...
That may work as a concept in a different media but not in a videogame and definitely not in Galactus as well who is defeated constantly.


I think Galactus as a concept definitely works. So much so that endless misuse of the concept (along the lines you describe) hasn't really dulled its effectiveness much (as a concept).

MisterJB wrote...
You play a game to win, afterall.


And there is no greater or more life-affirming victory than overcoming the inhuman cosmic and natural forces that would deny our very existence and the meaning we ascribe to it. That's what people want(ed) out of the ending, I think. Which isn't to say that the game *had* to handle it that way.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:59 .


#57679
jtav

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Hmm. In Synthesis, Miranda has her genetic code rewritten and she and all organics gain new abilities. So, she no longer has quite the genes she's born with. Do you think this would help her self-esteem issues.

#57680
MisterJB

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The concept is fine. The insignificance of life compared to the majesty and inevitability of the universe. It's not one I subscribe to; I much prefer to see it subverted; but the concept itself is fine.

I meant that Galactus, the Marvel Character, does not make justice to the concept because he is too human, because he has been defeated several times, etc.

#57681
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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With Destroy, how will she be remembered? Even with High EMS, we are not reunited, and once again the whole galaxy thinks that Shepard is dead. It's like her name will be lost through time.:unsure:

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:00 .


#57682
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Miranda never gave two cents to glory and recognition. That's more Henry's domain.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:07 .


#57683
flemm

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MisterJB wrote...

The concept is fine. The insignificance of life compared to the majesty and inevitability of the universe. It's not one I subscribe to; I much prefer to see it subverted; but the concept itself is fine.


Well, that would be the victory: affirming the significance of life and human agency in the face of the majesty and inevitability of the universe. But only at great cost and perhaps not in a way that anyone really expected.

There are things in the EC that try to move in that direction, I think. But... it's not really something that can be tacked on.

MisterJB wrote...
I meant that Galactus, the Marvel Character, does not make justice to the concept because he is too human, because he has been defeated several times, etc.


That's what I meant, more or less, by it being a "wonky" concept. Still a great concept, though.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .


#57684
jtav

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Of course they'll be reunited. She's actually the person most likely to find Shepard, regardless of romance.

#57685
CrutchCricket

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MisterJB wrote...
That may work as a concept in a different media but not in a videogame and definitely not in Galactus as well who is defeated constantly. For this concept to work, then this personification must be as invicible and inevitable as death or magnetism. If it is not, if the protagonists discover a way of avoiding it, then the theme doesn't work and it is better if the story then focus on desmitifying these cosmic powers and either bringing them down to our level or raising us to theirs.

Galactus was originally meant to be just that. Even though the FF do manage to stop him with a deus ex machina, his original creator (can't remember if it was Kirby or not) didn't want to reuse him. But fan demand brought him back.
As for his defeats they are mitigated by the fact that he's not the strongest entity in the Marvel universe by far. If there's one thing you can count on in comic books: there's always a bigger fish (also everyone dies and comes back). But it's interesting because Marvel sets up a hierarchy of "cosmicness". Whereas I think traditional cosmic entities really are supposed to be all powerful, in Marvel you can have things that are almost as far above Galactus as he is above us. It still goes with what flemm was saying about us really being insignificant in the grand scheme of it all. It's just that existence is more layered than previously thought.

And really, most of Galactus' defeats have been aversions, directing him elsewhere. You can argue that this still cheapens him but meh. Heroes still have to win I guess. Also Worf Effect and related tropes apply.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:07 .


#57686
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flemm wrote...
Well, that would be the victory: affirming the significance of life and human agency in the face of the majesty and inevitability of the universe. But only at great cost and perhaps not in a way that anyone really expected.

There are things in the EC that try to move in that direction, I think. But... it's not really something that can be tacked on.

I tought that was exactly what we got. Do you disagree?

#57687
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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MisterJB wrote...

Miranda never gave two cents to glory and recognition. That's more Henry's domain.


Glory? I meant, perhaps I did mean glory. But I also meant her being remembered, and not forgotten for the things she did to save Earth. With no children....well, I don't know.:unsure:

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .


#57688
flemm

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MisterJB wrote...
I tought that was exactly what we got. Do you disagree?


It depends on what you mean. If you mean: we got this in the original endings, then I disagree.

If you mean that, in the EC, Weekes and others tried to take the original endings and turn them into something along the lines of what I described, then I agree. If you mean, did they succeed? I would say: only a little, or only partially.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:10 .


#57689
MisterJB

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CrutchCricket wrote...
Galactus was originally meant to be just that. Even though the FF do manage to stop him with a deus ex machina, his original creator (can't remember if it was Kirby or not) didn't want to reuse him. But fan demand brought him back.

On this topic, I tought Gah-Lak-Tus was much more well done than Galactus. I certainly can't complain that it is more a human in a ridiculous hat than a Comic Entity.

(also everyone dies and comes back).

Except Uncle Ben.

#57690
CrutchCricket

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flemm wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The concept is fine. The insignificance of life compared to the majesty and inevitability of the universe. It's not one I subscribe to; I much prefer to see it subverted; but the concept itself is fine.


Well, that would be the victory: affirming the significance of life and human agency in the face of the majesty and inevitability of the universe. But only at great cost and perhaps not in a way that anyone really expected.

If you wanted to truly play it straight, then no, victory should not be possible at least not the "I win, they lose" kind. Maybe victory means you don't get entirely wiped out and can start again.

But because people do want to win is why this concept is subverted and why beings like Galactus lose, or more specifically are thwarted or delayed. If you imagine omnipotence or close to it on the opposing side you need to cheapen it to win.

#57691
MisterJB

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MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Glory? I meant, perhaps I did mean glory. But I also meant her being remembered, and not forgotten for the things she did to save Earth. With no children....well, I don't know.:unsure:

Miranda doesn't care if people forget she helped save Earth. She cares only that Earth has been saved.
It's one of the things that set her apart from Henry Lawson who would make sure everyone knew he had saved Earth and demand Australia be renamed "Lawsonlopolis".

#57692
flemm

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CrutchCricket wrote...
 If you imagine omnipotence or close to it on the opposing side you need to cheapen it to win.


I don't think we need to imagine omnipotence. Galactus is not omnipotent. Neither is the asteroid. They just operate on a scale that dwarfs human agency and human endeavor.

But it's ok, then, for humanity to rise up and overcome the challenge. That doesn't really cheapen galactus. Or the asteroid. it's only one way of handling it, but it can work.

(Repeated ridiculous appearances can cheapen galactus, but his original "defeat" at the hands of the Fantastic Four really didn't, I don't think.)

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .


#57693
CrutchCricket

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MisterJB wrote...
On this topic, I tought Gah-Lak-Tus was much more well done than Galactus. I certainly can't complain that it is more a human in a ridiculous hat than a Comic Entity.

Hey man don't diss the hat. That hat can crush worlds and he wears it like a boss.

Ah yes, Gah-Lak-Tus. The sentient race of starships... lol. They even look like Reapers.

What was Gah-Lak-Tus' purpose again? I'm not as familiar with the Ultimates storyline.

Except Uncle Ben.

No, Uncle Ben:crying: He taught me so much... with his one line that everyone parrots to death.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .


#57694
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flemm wrote...
I don't think we need to imagine omnipotence. Galactus is not omnipotent. Neither is the asteroid. They just operate on a scale that dwarfs human agency and human endeavor.

But it's ok, then, for humanity to rise up and overcome the challenge. That doesn't really cheapen galactus. Or the asteroid. it's only one way of handling it, but it can work.

(Repeated ridiculous appearances can cheapen galactus, but his original "defeat" at the hands of the Fantastic Four really didn't, I don't think.)

Well not omnipotence in the conceptual sense. But power so vast it might as well be all-encompassing from our point of view. If something can do anything as far as we know then it may appear omnipotent even though it isn't actually. And us defeating it would still require a reduction of its power or some other nullification (usually through a deus ex machina)

#57695
flemm

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CrutchCricket wrote...
What was Gah-Lak-Tus' purpose again? I'm not as familiar with the Ultimates storyline.



It was basically an attempt to update/de-wonkify the original campy storyline. It definitely had its merits. Gah-Lak-Tus' "purpose" was basically the same: force of nature.

CrutchCricket wrote...
And us defeating it would still require a reduction of its power or some other nullification (usually through a deus ex machina)


Well... I dunno. In the original story, the FF obtains a weapon from galactus' own arsenal (the appropriately campy "Ultimate Nullifier" as I recall) and threatens the entity with it, thereby affirming humanity's right to go on existing.

It doesn't really reduce Galactus' power so much as it affirms (in an admittedly campy way) that human agency and ingenuity can stand up to this cosmic force, demanding to be recognized as significant.

It has "promethean" aspects (stealing the fire of the gods).

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:25 .


#57696
MisterJB

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flemm wrote...
It was basically an attempt to update/de-wonkify the original campy storyline. It definitely had its merits. Gah-Lak-Tus' "purpose" was basically the same: force of nature.

It worked like a force of nature but it had a very human motive. Organic life disgusted it to the point it wanted to purge the multiverse of it.
Professor Xavier defeats it by having all humans telepatically touch its mind. Gah-Lak-Tus starts to, literally, having a fit. "Ewwwww Ewwww Organics".
That and they hit it with a Big Bang.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .


#57697
flemm

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MisterJB wrote...
It worked like a force of nature but it had a very human motive. Organic life disgusted it to the point it wanted to purge the multiverse of it.


It's been a while, but I don't think that was supposed to be interpreted as a human motive, more like a primal reflex. But... it's true that the Ultimate galactus storyline did treat the entity more as an exotic and powerful lifeform sometimes, rather than a cosmic force.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:29 .


#57698
MisterJB

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flemm wrote...
Well... I dunno. In the original story, the FF obtains a weapon from galactus' own arsenal (the appropriately campy "Ultimate Nullifier" as I recall) and threatens the entity with it, thereby affirming humanity's right to go on existing.

It doesn't really reduce Galactus' power so much as it affirms (in an admittedly campy way) that human agency and ingenuity can stand up to this cosmic force, demanding to be recognized as significant.

It has "promethean" aspects (stealing the fire of the gods).

I tought it undermined the point since all we did was steal one of its gadgets and return it to it afterwards.
In the Ultimate storyline, mankind actually had to build its Nullifier much like Shepard has to build the Crucible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:31 .


#57699
flemm

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MisterJB wrote...
I tough it undermined the point since all we did was steal one of its gadgets and return it to it afterwards.


Probably, speaking in abstract terms. If one were redoing the story today, it wouldn't be handled that way. But... reduced to a concept, it still happens the way it should happen, i.e. human beings steal the fire that is denied them in order to stand up to the gods.

MisterJB wrote...

That and they hit it with a Big Bang.



Same thing, only less wonky Posted Image

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:37 .


#57700
jtav

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Could you guys take pity on non-FF fans and move the conversation elsewhere?