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[RamilVenoard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Hmm. In Synthesis, Miranda has her genetic code rewritten and she and all organics gain new abilities. So, she no longer has quite the genes she's born with. Do you think this would help her self-esteem issues.

I don't think she has any left at the end of ME3, but if she had, certainly. She'd see first-hand that her genes aren't what define her. Also, I think everyone still has the same information coded in their genes as before. It's just that (a) a different, more versatile coding mechanism is used and (2) the genetic groundwork to integrate technology is added.

Synthesis doesn't re-write genetic code... it simply integrates technological evolutionary progress into organic bodies. Organic genes, however, still function the way they always have. Otherwise, everyone would look exactly the same...

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't think she has any left at the end of ME3, but if she had, certainly. She'd see first-hand that her genes aren't what define her.

In ME3, we don't see any evidence of the existencial issues that plagued her so in ME2 but none of the scenes in both games evidence any sort of character development that could justify their absence apart, possibly, from her reaction to Shepard's line "He gave you gifts..." which seems very little indeed.

So...it could just be bad writing.

[fiendishchicken]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
What's even better is that Martin Sheen played Uncle Ben in The Amazing Spider-Man. Although "With great power comes great responsibility" isn't something I could see TIM saying.

I think on some level TIM accepts responsibility for what he must do. He accepts the weight of the sacrifices. I see him a lot like Ozymandias in that respect.

Or at least he was. I'm not sure what ME3 TIM's game is.

A pet, a puppet of the Reapers. That's what I blame. He wasn't himself anymore, the Reapers owned him.

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't think she has any left at the end of ME3, but if she had, certainly. She'd see first-hand that her genes aren't what define her.

In ME3, we don't see any evidence of the existencial issues that plagued her so in ME2 but none of the scenes in both games evidence any sort of character development that could justify their absence apart, possibly, from her reaction to Shepard's line "He gave you gifts..." which seems very little indeed.

So...it could just be bad writing.

I honestly don't see Miranda as lacking in esteem. She just feels as though her genes are responsible, not herself. She's coming to terms with her origin and background, but I don't think she feels low about herself.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I think THIS would have worked better, what do you think?

*Miranda and Shepard finally reach the room on Cronos, where The Illusive Man sat. Miranda sits on the Illusive Man's chair, searching through the Computer*

*The Illusive Man appears via Hologram*

TIM: Miss Lawson, you are sitting in my  chair...."

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[flemm]

fiendishchicken wrote...

I honestly don't see Miranda as lacking in esteem. She just feels as though her genes are responsible, not herself. She's coming to terms with her origin and background, but I don't think she feels low about herself.

I think a distinction between self-esteem and self-confidence is useful here. For most people, they would go together. However, seemingly Miranda has high self-confidence but lower self-esteem than a person with her accomplishments would normally have (due to attributing her success to her genetic make-up).

As to where this is at in ME3... *sigh*. Nothing really happened with it.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:13 .

[fiendishchicken]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I think THIS would have worked better, what do you think?

*Miranda and Shepard finally reach the room on Cronos, where The Illusive Man sat. Miranda sits on the Illusive Man's chair, searching through the Computer*

*The Illusive Man appears via Hologram*

TIM: Miss Lawson, you are sitting in my chair...."

Shepard is more symbolic imo. 

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Because they're not encompassing enough. The Catalyst as an embodiment of all the Reapers may be near the mark, but a Reaper simply isn't big enough. I can comprehend its scale. Also, I've grown up reading SF featuring cosmic powers with minds encompassing galaxy clusters. That's what I'd call cosmic.

Still physical then. Well they could've gotten around to hinting at some greater nature. The reapers aren't just the giant robot cuttlefish we see. Maybe they extend in more dimesions or something.

Regardless I don't think we need them to be truly cosmic to get at what flemm and I are saying. You wouldn't know it from Mass Effect but aliens really aren't supposed to be anthropomorphic. The chances of encountering extraterrestrial life that even percieves through the same senses is small indeed. Obivously this needs to be handwaved in galactic society stories. But it might've been enough to take note of this for the Reapers if they are supposed to be so different.

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

One of the better moments of the ME2 romance. I'll probably have to dodge tomatoes for this but I find the ME3 romance content much better. ME2 feels a bit hackneyed. ME3 feels more specific to a particular couple in a particular situation. ME2s romance feels like watching a pair of archetypes.

*tosses some rotten tomatoes at jtav* just kidding. It's hard for me to like much of anything about Miranda in ME3 at times because she seems to be treated so much like an afterthought.

[CrutchCricket]

Because she has no more control of the synthesis change than she did over her creation, it wouldn't impact her esteem issues in any way. If she had them before, she'll have them after. If she dealt with them, it won't bring them back.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

fiendishchicken wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I think THIS would have worked better, what do you think?

*Miranda and Shepard finally reach the room on Cronos, where The Illusive Man sat. Miranda sits on the Illusive Man's chair, searching through the Computer*

*The Illusive Man appears via Hologram*

TIM: Miss Lawson, you are sitting in my chair...."

Shepard is more symbolic imo. 

But it would have been interesting to see this different scenario, especially if you have both her and EDI in the Squad.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:24 .

[Master Alenko]

She seemed a little b****y to me which I didn't like about her. But I still think it's fair she gets more screen - time. To me she wasn't a bad character she had very good points too. I wouldn't mind seeing a mission with her.

I want more to do with the love interests in general. That aspect of the series really made me want to play. I think they should create a DLC involving the love interest although I'm not sure how that would work out with Miranda since you could only make her your LI in ME2. I'm sure it could work though.

Sorry if that was slightly off the topic.

Modifié par Master Alenko, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Because she has no more control of the synthesis change than she did over her creation, it wouldn't impact her esteem issues in any way. If she had them before, she'll have them after. If she dealt with them, it won't bring them back.

Agreed. Basically, Miranda confronting her father should be the pivotal moment where she fully embraces her identity, her ownership of all the things she has accomplished.

This is one reason why, I think, what we have is so problematic: the confrontation with the father, which should be such an important and meaningful moment, doesn't amount to anything at all, and doesn't open the door to character growth the way it should.

Her father might as well be Random Cerberus Kidnapper in the game we have.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:24 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I can see TIM trying to lure Miri back to Cerberus as well.

TIM: Miranda, I'm surprised at you. You had potential. You were my best Operative. You always stood for what Cerberus was. I'm doing this for the sake of humanity. Don't you want Humanity to prosper? Why waste your time with Shepard? In fact, I believe there's something more between you too, isn't there? You'll only be hurt in the End.

Would someone like to help me out in creating a good comeback for Miri to say?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:31 .

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Because she has no more control of the synthesis change than she did over her creation, it wouldn't impact her esteem issues in any way. If she had them before, she'll have them after. If she dealt with them, it won't bring them back.

Agreed. Basically, Miranda confronting her father should be the pivotal moment where she fully embraces her identity, her ownership of all the things she has accomplished.

This is one reason why, I think, what we have is so problematic: the confrontation with the father, which should be such an important and meaningful moment, doesn't amount to anything at all, and doesn't open the door to character growth the way it should.

Her father might as well be Random Cerberus Kidnapper in the game we have.

It's sort of the Magister Danarius Problem Mr. Lawson's talked about so much in ME2 only to have zero character development or motivation when we finally meet him. It doesn't help matters that Magister Danarius' VA is also Henry Lawson's VA.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
Agreed. Basically, Miranda confronting her father should be the pivotal moment where she fully embraces her identity, her ownership of all the things she has accomplished.

This is one reason why, I think, what we have is so problematic: the confrontation with the father, which should be such an important and meaningful moment, doesn't amount to anything at all, and doesn't open the door to character growth the way it should.

Her father might as well be Random Cerberus Kidnapper in the game we have.

This can't be said enough. Killing Henry; or simply reduce him to his insignificance; was a necessary step to ensure the twin's freedom but ultimately meaningless if his effect on Miranda's life is not adressed.

[MisterJB]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
It's sort of the Magister Danarius Problem Mr. Lawson's talked about so much in ME2 only to have zero character development or motivation when we finally meet him. It doesn't help matters that Magister Danarius' VA is also Henry Lawson's VA.

Hun...no. Danarius is voiced by Tom Chadbon while Henry is voiced by Alan Dale who, curiously, also portrayed a possessive father, businessman and antagonist in "Lost" whose hype also didn't match the delivery in the final season.

BTW, I had forgotten how beautiful Fenris' theme is.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:37 .

[jtav]

And Henry didn't need to be killed as much as he needed to be verbally defeated. He's not Kai Leng. His hold on Miranda was psychological, therefore her victory needed to be psychological. And ideally, his end would allow Miranda to move on to bigger and better things. It's great that her sister is free, but it can't end there because Oriana doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the plot. She should be just a device that forces Miranda to confront her inner demons. But the story never ends once those demons are confronted. One she's dealt with her personal problems, it's time to move on to the bigger picture.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

It's sort of the Magister Danarius Problem Mr. Lawson's talked about so much in ME2 only to have zero character development or motivation when we finally meet him.

It's a good comparison. There's an important thing that happens there that is conspicuously absent from Miranda's confrontation: Miranda never speaks directly to Henry to deny his ownership of her (from this scene, "You are no longer my master").

Does it have to be said? Maybe not, but it probably should be, especially given that, in Miranda's case, we're talking about a situation that's complicated by the whole genetic engineering question.

Regardless, as JB states, this confrontation can only really be meaningful insofar as we see its aftermath: how does it change Miranda? How is her life different? (And Orianna's life.)

The fact that we don't see that development deprives this confrontation of the meaning it should have.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .

[Attila 6]

what dou you think, why was Miranda so secret about the alliance resources when she asked Shepard?

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

And Henry didn't need to be killed as much as he needed to be verbally defeated. He's not Kai Leng. His hold on Miranda was psychological, therefore her victory needed to be psychological.

It's not merely psychological. Merely psychological doesn't require something like Cerberus to guard from. The psychological aspects need to be addressed for sure. But Lawson needs to die.

Of course he also needs to stop being a pansy (stronger word redacted).

He's not Kai Leng. Pfft. More like: that twirling fruit is more threatening than he is.

Preemptively: no JB we're not starting this discussion again.

[flemm]

Attila 6 wrote...

what dou you think, why was Miranda so secret about the alliance resources when she asked Shepard?

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be that much reason for it. Also, they never serve any purpose, so... who knows?

*sigh*

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:01 .

[jtav]

Actually, there is a reason. Miranda has a nasty habit of not giving people the whole story until it's dragged out of her, even when her life would be much easier if she were completely honest (see Niket). It's a character flaw, but one previously established.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Actually, there is a reason. Miranda has a nasty habit of not giving people the whole story until it's dragged out of her, even when her life would be much easier if she were completely honest (see Niket).

What do you mean, exactly (which example) ?

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:09 .

[jtav]

Miranda has a habit of giving our friends and allies no more information than she feels they need, even when her silence causes problems. Money was the major motivation for Niket's betrayal, but being lied to for nearly two decades seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back.She also allows Shepard to believe that they are rescuing an infant until she's forced to confess otherwise. She does the same thing in ME3--omitting critical information because she thinks he doesn't need to know.