82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Well, she never told Niket about Oriana. She didn't tell Shepard she had taken a baby from her father, justified tough it might be; until she had no other choice.
So, not telling Shepard what she intended to do could be considered in-character.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 She does the same thing in ME3--omitting critical information because she thinks he doesn't need to know.

Maybe... That could make sense, but the fact that the Alliance resources are never used for anything makes it hard to evaluate.

Basically, if she is asking for them, that should be because she needs them for something. But... seemingly she doesn't.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[jtav]

I know this will get me hit with tomatoes, but if they wanted her death so badly that her survival has multiple conditions that don't otherwise change the outcome of her mission (see Mordin for an example of a difficult survival done right) than may should have simply killed her. Because the only reason she survived is that they were more scared of pissing us off than they were Thane fans. And that doesn't speak well of them as writers.

Not that I love the death scene, mind you. I'd like to give the writers a stern talking to about forcing characters into clichés they don't fit. I actually would kill her on Sanctuary if I were writing this story, but seeing her so terribly tragic makes me have her survive.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Not that I love the death scene, mind you. I'd like to give the writers a stern talking to about forcing characters into clichés they don't fit. I actually would kill her on Sanctuary if I were writing this story, but seeing her so terribly tragic makes me have her survive.

In the end it doesn't matter because, live or die, this story doesn't do justice to the character. So, better that she survive and it be fixed (even the little additions like the email and epilogue slides do that to a degree).

You can't really (and shouldn't) try to squeeze Miranda into what basically amounts to a Star Wars-inspired space opera cliché. So, at least that didn't happen.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:27 .

[Ieldra]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
*Shepard's Reaction when seeing Miri holding a Katana*

Shepard: How did you learn to use an ancient weapon so quickly?

Miri: I am a fast learner, Shepard. These Phantoms obviously learned that the hard way. *In a seductive voice* I am a dangerous enemy, you know?

Shepard: *Moves closer to Miri to kiss her* You most certainly are dangerous.

This would be good for Fan Art.:innocent:

Beautiful! I love the idea Miranda using an old-fashioned melee weapon. I want a comic! *looks around for the resident artists* *cough*

BTW, what's happening? Two pages added in one hour? I can't keep up, I have other things to do....*grumbles*

[jtav]

Could you explain that last bit? Personally, I would have treated her like Coulson in the MCU. But this? This is just sad.

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...

Could you explain that last bit? Personally, I would have treated her like Coulson in the MCU. But this? This is just sad.

You would kill her off in the movie adaptation while introducing her as a new character in the comic book?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Could you explain that last bit? Personally, I would have treated her like Coulson in the MCU. But this? This is just sad.

Basically ME3 wants to pretend that Miranda was a Darth Vader-esque apprentice to the Sith Emperor who turned to the light side with some help from the protagonist, who saw the good in her/him. S/he casts down the Dark Lord as s/he dies, having been redeemed by love (for the son/protagonist in Vader's case, for Orianna/the protagonist in Miranda's case).

I'm sure if one looked at the Star Wars extended universe stuff, one could find other examples. (Interestingly, Leng has been compared by the writers to Darth Maul, who is a Sith henchman with no "light-side" shift.)

Miranda's death scene is really similar to Vader's in Return of the Jedi in several respects, including tone. She actually casts down her father, but she also plants the tracer which leads to the fall of Cerberus. I think the space opera side of things probably explains the somewhat negative interpretation that seems to have been assigned at some point to Miranda's genetic engineering: from that point of view, it's like the mechanical aspect of Vader/other Sith, something that dehumanizes her a bit, and predisposes her to the dark side, but the good in her finally emerges anyway.

Miranda in ME2 wasn't written like that of course. On the crit path, she is a a grey/dark grey character, but without any negative connotations. Off the crit path, she is more complex, but very sympathetic overall. At some point a Space Opera/Star Wars template got applied to the ME2 persona (basically).

That, imo, was a mistake that should be fixed, and it's good that Miranda survived so that this could happen, to whatever degree.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[hot_heart]

Maybe it's cheesy but I think Henry Lawson should've been killed by his other 'creations'.

Also, I see the point with Miranda not giving out all the information but considering there could be a relationship, maybe that should've changed. And the fact that she'd just leave rather than explain. And that she can be very open in the same conversation... agh!

Frankly, I'm just working with the idea of 'plausible deniability'...though my story may take it one step further.

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

Miranda in ME2 wasn't written like that of course. On the crit path, she is a a grey/dark grey character, but without any negative connotations. Off the crit path, she is more complex, but very sympathetic overall. At some point a Space Opera/Star Wars template got applied to the ME2 persona (basically).

Which by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It could be done well (Then again, technically anything could be done well), albeit with a bit of difficulty. I think ME2 had the balance between her 2 basic aspects almost perfect. At points, it feels like whats-his-name who wrote Miranda in ME3 either forgot about her ambiguity from ME2 or deliberately ignored it in an attempt to make her more "mainstream" (I loathe that word).

[o Ventus]

hot_heart wrote...

Maybe it's cheesy but I think Henry Lawson should've been killed by his other 'creations'.

Well, the only 2 he has are Miranda and Oriana.

[hot_heart]

o Ventus wrote...
Well, the only 2 he has are Miranda and Oriana.

I mean the husks that were running amok.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...
Which by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It could be done well (Then again, technically anything could be done well), albeit with a bit of difficulty.

Maybe. Anything's possible. But... the template I described is very reductive. It tends to eliminate a lot of the specificity of the character, and really contradict a lot (most?) of what we saw in ME2 (which is basically what we have been complaining about all along).

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .

[o Ventus]

hot_heart wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Well, the only 2 he has are Miranda and Oriana.

I mean the husks that were running amok.

Why not just say that then?

[jtav]

MrNose wrote...

jtav wrote...

Could you explain that last bit? Personally, I would have treated her like Coulson in the MCU. But this? This is just sad.

You would kill her off in the movie adaptation while introducing her as a new character in the comic book?

Hehe. But What I meant was, that I would get rid of that "space opera template" flemm mentions. Miranda's idealism and absolute fury that Cerberus betrayed those ideals would be her dominant characteristic. I would show the fight on screen. She is clearly outmatched. Leng taunts her and even gives her the chance to return to Cerberus. It's the only hope she has. She spits in his face even though she knows she'll lose the fight. This is not her Cerberus, and Leng will never understand.She's defiant to the end and gets a few good shots in. Shepard chases Leng off, but it's too late. Miranda says final goodbye to Ori and reveals the tracer to Shepard. She dies knowing that she beat Leng and his vision won't carry the day. But on the other side, it allows Leng to be perceived as a dangerous threat even if Thane is dead and provides a more personal low point than Thessia. You've now lost one of your strongest allies to the bad guys, the person you were used to having around.

And onne of those slides would be a statue of her surrounded by people with visible Lazarus cybernetics

Modifié par jtav, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .

[hot_heart]

o Ventus wrote...
Why not just say that then?

I didn't think it was that subtle.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 Miranda's idealism and absolute fury that Cerberus betrayed those ideals would be her dominant characteristic.

That would certainly be an improvement and more in line with the ME2 characterisation overall.

Probably where Miranda is concerned there wasn't unanimity on the dev side. One of the reasons why I tend to have a hard time thinking of Walters as the main problem when it comes to Miranda's characterisation in ME3 is that he seems to consider grey and dark grey characters mostly in a positive light, and of course he wrote crit path Miranda in ME2, who is like that.

Also, if the shift I described is accurate, I have a hard time imagining Weekes being super pleased with it either (he obviously didn't write non-crit path Miranda in ME2 with this in mind). Lead developer has a star wars background, though.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:14 .

[jtav]

And now I have the mental image of Patrick and Mac reading this thread, glaring at Casey and going "we told you so."

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

(Interestingly, Leng has been compared by the writers to Darth Maul, who is a Sith henchman with no "light-side" shift.)

****. NO. Whoever made that comparsion and I will have some words...

Maybe Leng was meant to be TIM's Maul. But they ****ed it up beyond repair and any such comparison is now an insult.

Interesting thematic comparison between Vader in Jedi and Miranda in Sanctuary. Though gray character or not, she hasn't done even a fraction of the kind of monstrous acts that are routine to a Sith Lord. Never mind that ME isn't the SW space opera type, Miranda does not fit the redeemed Sith angle (never mind the "find her a Sith name" thing a few pages back)

[CrutchCricket]

damn double post

Edit: Well might as well use it for something.


No forced death for Miranda. Ever. I don't care what the circumstances are how how dramatic it might seem. She can die but I can save her. Anything else is unacceptable.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:33 .

[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

No forced death for Miranda. Ever. I don't care what the circumstances are how how dramatic it might seem. She can die but I can save her. Anything else is unacceptable.

This.

All but 2 of my favorites are forced to death by this point. The survivors being Wrex and Miranda. "Forced" anything in a decision-based game where your actions are reflected in the events that transpire is the biggest mistake one can make in development.

[Titan147]

I keep reading about this email you seem to get from Miranda after Horizon. Was this added in the EC or am i missing something and it's before. Have had a look around the net, but can't seem to find it if there is one.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Interesting thematic comparison between Vader in Jedi and Miranda in Sanctuary. Though gray character or not, she hasn't done even a fraction of the kind of monstrous acts that are routine to a Sith Lord. Never mind that ME isn't the SW space opera type, Miranda does not fit the redeemed Sith angle (never mind the "find her a Sith name" thing a few pages back)

Agreed. Which is why I think it was a mistake, if indeed what I'm describing is accurate. Miranda is not a Sith Lord in ME2, so one cannot simply pretend that she was (or the ME equivalent).
 
It would explain a lot, though. Including such apparently incomprehensible omissions such as Miranda never having a line about how Cerberus is no longer the organisation she worked for (Kelly and Jacob both have versions of this).

If the thinking underlying this is a pseudo-mystical shift to the "light side" via the redemptive power of love (i.e. Vader), then you would studiously avoid such a line, just as Vader never says, "Well, I once believed in the dark side, but the Emperer changed his approach, so I'm opposing him now."

The shoe doesn't fit, but then, we have been saying all along: this doesn't fit, it isn't right, etc.

One could say the same about TIM, though, in a sense. He is the Emperer now in ME3, in certain ways, whereas he wasn't portrayed that way before (right down to his eventual disfigurement).

As to the Darth Maul thing, it came up at some point as a way of describing Leng's role.

Indoctrinated Cerberus drones = stormtrooper or droid-esque cannon fodder, and so on.

Modifié par flemm, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[hot_heart]

Titan147 wrote...
I keep reading about this email you seem to get from Miranda after Horizon. Was this added in the EC or am i missing something and it's before. Have had a look around the net, but can't seem to find it if there is one.

There's not an email from Miranda but one about her on the Shadow Broker's terminal.

[Ieldra]

Titan147 wrote...
I keep reading about this email you seem to get from Miranda after Horizon. Was this added in the EC or am i missing something and it's before. Have had a look around the net, but can't seem to find it if there is one.

You'll find it on Liara's terminal after the mission after Sanctuary, and it's an email Miranda gets from some Alliance rep, but it indicates that Miranda's doing something for the war after Sanctuary on her own initiative.