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[o Ventus]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

That doesn't really give me enough to give a fair estimate. lol Though, I suppose Miranda doesn't have to worry about parent pulling out Baby Photos or anything...

Well, it's all you really learn about her. Shepard's father is MIA the whole trilogy, never mentioned or spoken to, and it's never said if he's alive or dead. 

[jtav]

Permission to put on the analysis hat so I can complain about the ME3 arc some more? I just finished ME2 and some things are fresh in my mind.

[MisterJB]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

So, I've been wondering lately, What do you think Miranda and Shepard would argue over?

No relationship is perfect and Miranda and Shepard are on opposite ends of spectrum when answering some questions sometimes, so, What do you think they'd have a legitimate arguement over?

We see it happen sometimes in ME2, Miranda is the soul of caution, Shepard is more willing to take certain risks for a greater reward. Awakening Legion, sending someone back with the crew.

Unless you want your Shepard to agree with Miranda in everything which is also possible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .

[LanceSolous13]

MisterJB wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

So, I've been wondering lately, What do you think Miranda and Shepard would argue over?

No relationship is perfect and Miranda and Shepard are on opposite ends of spectrum when answering some questions sometimes, so, What do you think they'd have a legitimate arguement over?

We see it happen sometimes in ME2, Miranda is the soul of caution, Shepard is more willing to take certain risks for a greater reward. Awakening Legion, sending someone back with the crew.

Unless you want your Shepard to agree with Miranda in everything which is also possible.

"Cautious. But interested." I believe that's what she said, haven't played ME2 in a bit.

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

Permission to put on the analysis hat so I can complain about the ME3 arc some more? I just finished ME2 and some things are fresh in my mind.

Go ahead.

[o Ventus]

You think Miranda ever noticed some of the Normandy's crew in ME2 making inappropriate comments about her? Namely, Joker and Donnelly.

How would she react if she ever found out?

[LanceSolous13]

o Ventus wrote...

You think Miranda ever noticed some of the Normandy's crew in ME2 making inappropriate comments about her? Namely, Joker and Donnelly.

How would she react if she ever found out?

She probably does know, She just isn't going to say anything till its said straight to her face.

"I won't say anything about Miranda and expect to surviva the reprisal." I believe is what Joker says.

Shepard is probably the only person who could ever say anything to her face and get away with it.

[flemm]

JeffZero wrote...

flemm would probably agree with me if I were to say that sometimes, a work literally fails to even stand, falls apart and we all collectively forget it ever happened. DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." for example.

LoL, Jeff, for some reason i didn't see this when you initially posted it.

Perhaps I didn't want to see it?

The horror, the horror...

Modifié par flemm, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:02 .

[o Ventus]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

You think Miranda ever noticed some of the Normandy's crew in ME2 making inappropriate comments about her? Namely, Joker and Donnelly.

How would she react if she ever found out?

She probably does know, She just isn't going to say anything till its said straight to her face.

"I won't say anything about Miranda and expect to surviva the reprisal." I believe is what Joker says.

Shepard is probably the only person who could ever say anything to her face and get away with it.

If she knows and plans to do something about it, why wait? 

[dtrain24]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

You think Miranda ever noticed some of the Normandy's crew in ME2 making inappropriate comments about her? Namely, Joker and Donnelly.

How would she react if she ever found out?

She probably does know, She just isn't going to say anything till its said straight to her face.

"I won't say anything about Miranda and expect to surviva the reprisal." I believe is what Joker says.

Shepard is probably the only person who could ever say anything to her face and get away with it.

Assuming it's romanced Shepard, of course.

But if someone else said it straight to her face...

Donnelly- You know Miranda, your 'uniform' always gets me to stand at attention, heh..
Miranda- *bang*
Donnelly- Ouch! You shot me in the foot!
Miranda- You're lucky it wasn't your "daddy-bags."
Donnelly- But why the foot?
Miranda- Let's just say it's a little trick I learned from Shepard...

Modifié par dtrain24, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:04 .

[LanceSolous13]

dtrain24 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

You think Miranda ever noticed some of the Normandy's crew in ME2 making inappropriate comments about her? Namely, Joker and Donnelly.

How would she react if she ever found out?

She probably does know, She just isn't going to say anything till its said straight to her face.

"I won't say anything about Miranda and expect to surviva the reprisal." I believe is what Joker says.

Shepard is probably the only person who could ever say anything to her face and get away with it.

Assuming it's romanced Shepard, of course.

But if someone else said it straight to her face...

Donnelly- You know Miranda, your 'uniform' always gets me to stand at attention, heh..
Miranda- *bang*
Donnelly- Ouch! You shot me in the foot!
Miranda- You're lucky it wasn't your "daddy-bags."
Donnelly- But why the foot?
Miranda- Let's just say it's a little trick I learned from Shepard...

Shepard: That's my girl!

(I'm sorry, but I always shoot Conrad. There's just no other way for that scene to progress.)

[Td1984]

I've never actually shot him. Not even my Renegon Shep.

[dtrain24]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Shepard: That's my girl!

(I'm sorry, but I always shoot Conrad. There's just no other way for that scene to progress.)

It is a hilarious scene.

[jtav]

So I just finished ME2 in my usual way of Paragon base keeper who romanced Miranda. One of the things that I initially attracted me to her was that she wasn't in need of salvation. She was plagued by low self-esteem, but she knew who she was and what she wanted out of life. She had a cause she believed in.there's a part of her that needs to be attached to a cause to validate her existence, but in the last conversation you have with her–the conversation where she's at her lowest point regarding her genetics–she gives her reasons for joining Cerberus as essentially needing a challenge. It's not just latching on to the first group that will give her approval. And, if you dump her, she takes it rather well. This is a woman who cares about you, but she doesn't need you. Kasumi notes a change in her, but it's that she's a happier person. And indeed, she is a good bit happier if you Paragon her LM.

And somewhere around LOTSB we shift to a salvation story, with Miranda being redeemed by love both filial and romantic. Liara remarks about how much you've changed her in a romance from being "cold" and "completely focused on her duty." This suggests more than mere happiness. It suggests a change in priorities. Not merely a change in allegiance, which is justifiable and by ME3, morally necessary. This is Miranda shifting her focus from serving an ideal to being motivated by love and family. Her dossier supports this. Dropping a subscription to scientific journal is paired with subscribing to a fashion magazine and buying a relationship self-help book. Now there's nothing wrong with fashion magazines or self-help books, but the arrangement suggests that Miranda is finally getting in touch with what she really wants and what she really wants are traditionally feminine things. The dating and medical sections of the dossier suggest similar lines: Miranda discovering that what she really wants is a family, going about it with the social awkwardness nowhere present in the main game, and being cruelly denied it. It's also notable that the SB writeup on her paints her as a much nastier piece of work than the main game does: "ruthless" and "obsessed with human dominance." She is no longer merely mistaken in believing that Cerberus fights for her stated goal; her goals themselves are now suspect. Suddenly getting interested in fashion and children (and Shepard) is a good thing because it pulls her away from her evil goals.

And sure enough, ME3 Miranda is entirely motivated by her love for Oriana. Mentions of her Cerberus past are cursory at best, to the point that a Shepard who kept the base (ie, one that wasn't directly responsible for her celebration from Cerberus) will have no idea why she left. The idea of her only wanting marriage and children is picked up again in the death scene with the "things I can never have" line. Now, you may say that that's only indicative of the normal life she wanted for Oriana, but she still never mentions the things she wanted for humanity as a whole. Her goals are entirely personal. If she dies, Liara will speak of her coming to the right side in the end. The whole thing suggests that she was morally corrupt before but that her love for her sister saved her. If ME2 Miranda were to turn against Cerberus, I believe it would be ultimately because they turned against her ideals first. ME3 Miranda does not turn against anything. She merely hurts the people who are hurting her sister and just happens to stumble into a major contribution to the war effort. Several times, I feel like I'm supposed to give her moral credit for not being a sociopath. She loves her sister. Lots of people do. She shut down the ME version of Auschwitz, but she didn't go there to shut it down. Once she was there, she did, but I would expect no less of a supposedly capable operative. For all her abrasiveness and alarming quickness to declare allies expendable, Miranda showed more care for humanity when she was a Cerberus operative than when she was supposedly a better person.

Which leads me to my last point. We've talked several times about the fact that it felt like the writers were telling us that she needed to die for her crimes. But, well, what crimes? We know of exactly two operations she was involved in prior to ME2: saving the Citadel and resurrecting Shepard. She's more of a unsung hero that a villain. She's rude and quick to write her allies off as expendable, but she's no worse than the Renegade Shepard. In fact, she frequently voices the Renegade option in a briefing. Her choice may lead to a sub optimal outcome, but her choice is usually at least possible for Shepard to enact, unlike Jacob. On some level, the writers realize that she just wasn't that bad, because her confession is only the something she thought about doing. Now there are things a character can do that mean they "have" to die. But those characters really, actually, have to do something. Not merely think about it.

ME3 Miranda is not ME2 Miranda and the two games aren't telling the same story about her.

[Dr. Doctor]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

So, I've been wondering lately, What do you think Miranda and Shepard would argue over?

No relationship is perfect and Miranda and Shepard are on opposite ends of spectrum when answering some questions sometimes, so, What do you think they'd have a legitimate arguement over?

Miranda has a tendancy to withhold information  (letting Shepard believe that Oriana was an infant, not telling Jacob that she was the one who found the Hugo Gernsback's distress signal, asking for Alliance resources, going to Sanctuary alone, etc).  She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

[dtrain24]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

There is one. But I'm not sure what Shepard says...can anyone share?

[Dr. Doctor]

dtrain24 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

There is one. But I'm not sure what Shepard says...can anyone share?

It's along the lines of "Coming here alone was a risk, but it looks like you handled it okay" I was expecting Shepard to be angry/concerned that his girlfriend was nearly killed by a homicidal ballerina but instead it's "Yeah you did something stupid but at least you're okay/"

[enayasoul]

dtrain24 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

There is one. But I'm not sure what Shepard says...can anyone share?

Shepard: With everything at stake, you come in here alone.  That was foolish.

Miranda: Oriana was in danger.   You saw what my father was capable of.

Shepard:  About your father...

Miranda: I'm glad he's gone, Shepard. I'm sorry if that sounds cold.

Etc...

[dtrain24]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

There is one. But I'm not sure what Shepard says...can anyone share?

It's along the lines of "Coming here alone was a risk, but it looks like you handled it okay" I was expecting Shepard to be angry/concerned that his girlfriend was nearly killed by a homicidal ballerina but instead it's "Yeah you did something stupid but at least you're okay/"

Okay, thanks.
Lol I died at the homicidal ballerina part...


He's preparing to attack!!

[dtrain24]

enayasoul wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 She can obviously take care of herself but I really wish there was a "What the hell were you thinking?!" option if she survives Sanctuary, Shepard came very close to losing her and I really wanted him to be able to show some concern. 

There is one. But I'm not sure what Shepard says...can anyone share?

*snip*

Ah, thank you Enaya.

Also, I was curious. Is there a way to terminate a romance with Miranda in ME3 via dialogue with her outside of the break-up scene on the first conversation?
Not that I'm looking to do that, I'm just wondering.

[enayasoul]

If you don't lock her in... with the apartment and with someone else she goes into friend zone? Haven't done it.

[dtrain24]

enayasoul wrote...

If you don't lock her in... with the apartment and with someone else she goes into friend zone? Haven't done it.

I'm assuming if you don't pick the "Stop talking and kiss me" option, that ends the romance completely?
And I heard she'll revert to non-romance dialogue if you cheat on her, but she won't make a mention of it. Though I could use some confirmation on that bit.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
*snip*

ME3 Miranda is not ME2 Miranda and the two games aren't telling the same story about her.

Interesting read.

I think there was definitely a shift of some sort (whatever motivated it) some time after ME2. To the severe detriment of the character's portrayal.

On the bright side, I have a hard time believing somebody like Weekes was ever fully in favor of it. He wrote Miranda in ME2 as a kindred spirit to Mordin (Salarian STG/Humanity's STG), so it really makes no sense that he would be in favor of ignoring all that dialogue (that he wrote!) about Miranda wanting a challenge, wanting to do the impossible, etc.

And of course, suddenly, in the email and the epilogue slides, that ambitious side of the character has returned. So, somebody gets it, and understands what is missing.

Modifié par flemm, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...
And of course, suddenly, in the email and the epilogue slides, that ambitious side of the character has returned. So, somebody gets it, and understands what is missing.

Weekes and Dombrow spearheaded the EC. Jay W. did pretty well for his first time out as a writer but I really wish they hadn't given him Miranda as his first character.

[Td1984]

@dtrain24

I've been tempted to try a playthrough with Thomas that after re-affirming the relationship during the first conversation ultimately locks-in with Ashley just prior to the apartment scene with Miranda, just to see what happens when Sanctuary rolls around.

Modifié par Td1984, 09 juillet 2012 - 02:50 .