82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Except she did say that. And I'm extremely uncomfortable ignoring actual text when I'm trying to deal with a nearly identical issue. So I have to figure out why she said that. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[o Ventus]

t3HPrO wrote...

Moar Miri pic.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time this week this picture has been posted.

Not that I'm complaining, or anything, I enjoy this picture.

[hot_heart]

jtav wrote...
Would anyone be interested in helping me parse the betrayal line? I recognize the argument Miranda is making--the acts performed were so beyond the pale that any use of the knowledge feels like condoning the suffering of the victims. I'm just trying to figure out why Miranda would have said that because I'm about to put her in the similar situation of using the Sanctuary data to study indoctrination. Therefore, it seems badly done to simply dismiss something directly on point as OOC.

It may be slightly out-of-character but I think the best way to frame it may be with how they handle Maelon's data in ME2. Lot of similarities can be drawn there, both between Miranda/Mordin and the circumstances. And this time, she would be in control of the data rather than handing it over to Cerberus.

Why she says it, I'm not entirely clear on but there seems to be her 'questioning their goals', which she actually says if you keep the base, along with having seen "first-hand" what happened to the team on the derelict Reaper, as well as people they'd met being turned into goo. She might be questioning the use of things they don't fully comprehend as well? I'm just talking off the top of my head at the moment, kinda distracted with work.

Modifié par hot_heart, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:45 .

[Spectre-61]

o Ventus wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Moar Miri pic.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time this week this picture has been posted.

Not that I'm complaining, or anything, I enjoy this picture.

Is there a bigger version of  that pic?

[o Ventus]

variobunz wrote...

Is there a bigger version of  that pic?

For this particular one, I don't think so. I don't have any PES on this computer or I would resize it.

[Ieldra]

ME2 Miranda is still best....

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Except she did say that. And I'm extremely uncomfortable ignoring actual text when I'm trying to deal with a nearly identical issue. So I have to figure out why she said that. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Best explanation (imo) is that Miranda has deduced, or previously discussed with TIM (plausible, given how the rest of the conversation plays out), more or less what TIM plans to do with the technology acquired at the base.

Hence it can be understood as: using anything from this base (in the way I know or suspect you likely intend to use it) would be a betrayal.

I think this interpretation is supported by what happens in ME3: TIM uses the base technology to indoctrinate Cerberus troops, which is indeed a "betrayal."

If one interprets the line to mean "using anything from this base at any time for anything at all, ever, in any circumstances would be a betrayal," then it's much harder to justify. But... I don't think that's really a necessary interpretation.

Modifié par flemm, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:09 .

[wright1978]

yesikareyes wrote...

Okay, I just played the Extended Cut DLC knowing what to expect for Miranda content. My friend advised me to do the PT where I romanced Liara so that I could make the most out of the DLC but I was like heck no, I'm doing my canon first where I choose Miranda and destroy!

Truth be told, I was expecting to still not feel any closure or any peace but dang that flashback scene of Miranda was like magic because just knowing Shepard thought of her before he died was heartwarming. Before, he always thought of Liara, his ex-girlfriend, before he died or whatever. In addition to that, knowing that destroy doesn't obliterate everyone or reduces society to the stone age makes me optimistic that Shepard will find her!

While i was disappointed with lack of expansion of the Shep lives ending beyond the cryptic reluctance of Liara to add Shep's name to memorial wall, the EC did solve the big problems for me.

Relay damage was tweaked to show to be fixable. No galactic dark age now thankfully
Player agency was returned via refuse option and ability to quiz crazy midget.
Flashback sequence was fixed to show Miranda
Shep lives clip wasn't removed
Normandy wasn't stranded on Gilligan's island forever

Game falls far short of ME2 and ending is still flawed imo but it did enough to set my feet on the path of using my own imagination to  Shep being rescued from rubble, re-uniting with Miranda and re-building the universe.

[jtav]

@flemm

So, the best way to treat it would probably be to add a few lines where TIM is evasive about how precisely he intends to use the data? And what Miranda doesn't know is whether the likely suffering balances out what might be learned, even with galactic civilization at stake?

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Except she did say that. And I'm extremely uncomfortable ignoring actual text when I'm trying to deal with a nearly identical issue. So I have to figure out why she said that. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Will wonders never cease?

Well back when Ieldra and I were having it out over this line I was arguing that there is nothing of use in the base apart from the tech to make a Reaper which required melting people down to use. Thus "using anything" required melting people down which would be a betrayal. Now I don't know the specifics of what you're trying to do but if your set up is similar (i.e. you can only use it to indoctinate or by indoctrinating more people) then the same sort of logic would apply.

Another option is to have it as more of a question then an assertion. I see no reason why Miranda wouldn't have a strong gut reaction against using tech gotten through such awful methods that would force her to question her pragmatism. The idea we've been getting at is that pragmatism would win. But it's not out of character if that victory isn't flawless.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

@flemm

So, the best way to treat it would probably be to add a few lines where TIM is evasive about how precisely he intends to use the data? And what Miranda doesn't know is whether the likely suffering balances out what might be learned, even with galactic civilization at stake?

Well, I only have two real criticisms of Miranda's role in ME2, and one of those is that there should be an additional conversation with Miranda between the Collector Ship and the Collector Base (or a piece of a converstion with TIM that Shepard overhears, I guess).

The betrayal issue surfaces at the Collector Ship, and at that point Miranda is not ready to believe that TIM is willing to treat them (Miranda and Shepard) as expendable, and willing to betray humanity to achieve dominance/control of the galaxy.

But, by the time you get to the CB, those doubts would plausibly be more... concrete. Some dialogue where these doubts are expressed or manifest themselves after the CS should really be present, though, I think.

[viserion]

yesikareyes wrote...

Okay, I just played the Extended Cut DLC knowing what to expect for Miranda content. My friend advised me to do the PT where I romanced Liara so that I could make the most out of the DLC but I was like heck no, I'm doing my canon first where I choose Miranda and destroy!

Truth be told, I was expecting to still not feel any closure or any peace but dang that flashback scene of Miranda was like magic because just knowing Shepard thought of her before he died was heartwarming. Before, he always thought of Liara, his ex-girlfriend, before he died or whatever. In addition to that, knowing that destroy doesn't obliterate everyone or reduces society to the stone age makes me optimistic that Shepard will find her!

Hey man I only said that because I already knew that they fixed the flashback scene. The second good-bye scene (the one where you're running towards the beam), though awkwardly paced, was unexpected. I actually thought they were really going to kill your ground team. That scene would've had a different kind of emotional impact for you if you had Liara with you, and if she was your LI. I wanted you to experience that. That's one more scene you can't experience with Miranda.

I was hoping we'd get more content, but I set my expectations low from the beginning regarding ME2 romances that I wasn't surprised they only gave us what we got. However, the idea behind the shots of Miranda, depending on your ending, doing what she's doing is much appreciated.

Modifié par Wintersect, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:50 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Except she did say that. And I'm extremely uncomfortable ignoring actual text when I'm trying to deal with a nearly identical issue. So I have to figure out why she said that. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Someone asked about the "It seems like a betrayal" line at PAX East, Patrick Weekes said that it wasn't one of the lines he wrote so either Mac or Drew put it in there.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

jtav wrote...

Except she did say that. And I'm extremely uncomfortable ignoring actual text when I'm trying to deal with a nearly identical issue. So I have to figure out why she said that. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Someone asked about the "It seems like a betrayal" line at PAX East, Patrick Weekes said that it wasn't one of the lines he wrote so either Mac or Drew put it in there.

That doesn't surprise me. Both aren't exactly the embodiment of subtlety in their writing. I don't mind that Miranda's uncomfortable with things like using the base. But I'd expect her to be less one-sided about it. 

The ham-fistedness in some of the writing in the ME trilogy never ceases to amaze me. On the other hand, many fans aren't exactly receptive to subtlely.

[JeffZero]

Someone just posted a link to a confirmation of the Leviathan DLC in one of the storyline threads.

http://www.eurogamer...-by-voice-actor

I know it's unrelated, but I figured some of you haven't heard yet. (It's been like ten minutes.)

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

@flemm

So, the best way to treat it would probably be to add a few lines where TIM is evasive about how precisely he intends to use the data? And what Miranda doesn't know is whether the likely suffering balances out what might be learned, even with galactic civilization at stake?

Well, I only have two real criticisms of Miranda's role in ME2, and one of those is that there should be an additional conversation with Miranda between the Collector Ship and the Collector Base (or a piece of a converstion with TIM that Shepard overhears, I guess).

The betrayal issue surfaces at the Collector Ship, and at that point Miranda is not ready to believe that TIM is willing to treat them (Miranda and Shepard) as expendable, and willing to betray humanity to achieve dominance/control of the galaxy.

But, by the time you get to the CB, those doubts would plausibly be more... concrete. Some dialogue where these doubts are expressed or manifest themselves after the CS should really be present, though, I think.

Miranda doesn't need to hear how TIM intends to use the base. She knows him and what he's capable of.

As for the player, the line already exists in the game :

Shepard : "You completely ruthless. The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own reaper."
TIM : "My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers. At any cost. I've never hidden that from you."

TIM doesn't deny what Shepard says, and when he says "at any cost" (and considering the Cerberus experiments and projects already presented during ME1 and ME2) I think it's obvious to guess how TIM is going to use the CB.

edit :
I support the idea of a Miranda/TIM conversation (between the CS and the CB), only if it happens in private. For me it's obvious that this conversation happened, but I don't know how it could be shown in the game if Shepard is not here.

Modifié par Yannkee, 10 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[Dr. Doctor]

You'd think that after what happened with Liara and Dr. Kenson Shepard would swear off rescuing scientists.

[JeffZero]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

You'd think that after what happened with Liara and Dr. Kenson Shepard would swear off rescuing scientists.

Yes, indeed...

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The ham-fistedness in some of the writing in the ME trilogy never ceases to amaze me. On the other hand, many fans aren't exactly receptive to subtlely.

Subtlety is great when it works, but a lot of things don't need to be subtle. I don't like a lot of the inborn good vs evil in the universe, but the Reapers are as far to the dark side of grey as it gets. 

[CrutchCricket]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Subtlety is great when it works, but a lot of things don't need to be subtle. I don't like a lot of the inborn good vs evil in the universe, but the Reapers are as far to the dark side of grey as it gets. 

Grey? Seriously?

God, if we're considering the Reapers as grey, than Mass Effect has truly failed me (for the last time).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[fiendishchicken]

JeffZero wrote...

Someone just posted a link to a confirmation of the Leviathan DLC in one of the storyline threads.

http://www.eurogamer...-by-voice-actor

I know it's unrelated, but I figured some of you haven't heard yet. (It's been like ten minutes.)

Yeah I've heard. I'll get it and use it, but if it's another rachni queen, this Reaper is getting nuked. 
I find something doesn't add up. I want to know how this Reapers indoctrination works in comparison to the regular indoctrination of its estranged brethren. And also the whole, "one of the reapers is on our side" just pushes it too far past believable for me. I can see where it worked with the Geth through Legion, but this is too far-fetched imo.

[Skullheart]

variobunz wrote...

Is there a bigger version of  that pic?

Nope. I know it because I edited that picture.

[fiendishchicken]

CrutchCricket wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
Subtlety is great when it works, but a lot of things don't need to be subtle. I don't like a lot of the inborn good vs evil in the universe, but the Reapers are as far to the dark side of grey as it gets. 

Grey? Seriously?

God, if we're considering the Reapers as grey, than Mass Effect has truly failed me (for the last time).

I don't consider the Reapers grey. The guy I'm quoting does. Besides as I said, they might as well be black.