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[jtav]

I did read awesome plot idea where Miranda was a real femme fatale. Miranda faked her defection from Cerberus, was a temp squaddie, but took Leng's role when her true colors were revealed after the coup and berated Shepard for his stupidity in trusting her. She could become an ally again, and her feelings were genuine, but she was a dangerous enemy.

[Mr Plow]

jtav wrote...

I did read awesome plot idea where Miranda was a real femme fatale. Miranda faked her defection from Cerberus, was a temp squaddie, but took Leng's role when her true colors were revealed after the coup and berated Shepard for his stupidity in trusting her. She could become an ally again, and her feelings were genuine, but she was a dangerous enemy.

that thought crossed my mind after ME2  -what if the defection had been pre-planned by TIM and Miranda as part of a long term strategy?  would have been interesting.  Mind you if the above scenario you mention jtav with her taking Leng's role had played out for me there would be no second chances for her.  My Shepard may often think with his pants but really...

[hot_heart]

If anyone's seen Chinatown, there are actually vague similarities between that and Miranda.

[Stalker]

Mr Plow wrote...

jtav wrote...

I did read awesome plot idea where Miranda was a real femme fatale. Miranda faked her defection from Cerberus, was a temp squaddie, but took Leng's role when her true colors were revealed after the coup and berated Shepard for his stupidity in trusting her. She could become an ally again, and her feelings were genuine, but she was a dangerous enemy.

that thought crossed my mind after ME2  -what if the defection had been pre-planned by TIM and Miranda as part of a long term strategy?  would have been interesting.  Mind you if the above scenario you mention jtav with her taking Leng's role had played out for me there would be no second chances for her.  My Shepard may often think with his pants but really...

Indeed awesome idea.

However, I would also be very pissed if she betrays every Shepard. It could be like this:
- Paragon romance is never betrayed. She tells Shepard about her true intentions. She helps to stop the coup.
- Renegade romance can be convinced to trust at the climax of the coup.
- non-loyal/non-romancers/cheaters get completely betrayed and have to hunt Miranda down.

Too bad they never intended such awesome varieties of missions in ME3... maybe 3 years of development time would have done the game good after all.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Would anyone here be able to compare Miri to Lara Croft in some way?

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Please don't take it so personally, Luis. Some people may not understand the term, and that's understandable. Now you do, and that's good.

It must be said that the term isn't always used in the traditional sense anymore. Partly, I imagine, because the whole idea of a mysterious, sexy, deadly woman can have positive connotations now in ways that it probably didn't originally (originally the attraction would have to be offset with the idea that they posed a mortal danger, probably an aftertaste of an association with sin, temptation, etc.).

Black Widow in Avengers is recognizably a femme fatale, for example, in the sense that she has all the qualities associated with that type of character traditionally, but she doesn't have the same type of plot function anymore. That's not that unusual in popular culture (now).

Modifié par flemm, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:28 .

[hot_heart]

True, I just dislike that the term is essentially synonymous with 'dangerous woman' and, therefore, pretty meaningless. A few archetypes have held their original definitions, why not this?! I will fight it!

If there's a woman in that role in popular culture, she will automatically be attractive, alluring and deadly.

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

True, I just dislike that the term is essentially synonymous with 'dangerous woman' and, therefore, pretty meaningless. A few archetypes have held their original definitions, why not this?! I will fight it!

If there's a woman in that role in popular culture, she will automatically be attractive, alluring and deadly.

Well, I don't know. An alluring, mysterious, deadly women, with secrets, a checkered past, morally gray etc.... all of those traits together are always going to be recognizably a femme fatale. What has changed is more that this type of character is no longer locked into a single plot function with regard to the hero. Which is probably good, really.

It's probably an archetype that can't stay the same because too much has changed about how our culture perceives women, female sexuality, sexuality in general, and so on (mostly for the better, really).

To take the Black Widow example, she's got the checkered past, the secrets, she's even got the idea that she's trying to "wipe out the red in her ledger," so redeem herself for past crimes and so on. But... it's more organic. She's not just there to present a temptation. It's more that this combination of traits is just appealing now, in and of itself.

Edit: It will be interesting, on a related note, to see what Nolan does with Catwoman.

Modifié par flemm, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .

[hot_heart]

I see what you're saying but I would class that as a different type of character. The term can evolve to include different things, but I think the general idea is that the femme fatale is supposed to expose a weakness in the male character (if done well) and functions closer to an antagonist. It may seem a more antiquated idea, but films like Chinatown show the power of playing with and subverting it.

Characters like Black Widow and Miranda stand on their own, and have 'outgrown' the term. If you were talking about a male character with those same traits there is no need for a term like that.

Modifié par hot_heart, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:57 .

[o Ventus]

hot_heart wrote...

Characters like Black Widow and Miranda stand on their own, and have 'outgrown' the term in a way.

This is one of the most important reasons for why I like Miranda so much (Black Widow too, but to a lesser extent because I don't know too much about her), that she subverts what would otherwise be a f**king boring archetype, and one that she's relatively introduced as (well, with the exception of the Lazarus station conversation).

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

I see what you're saying but I would class that as a different type of character. The term can evolve to include different things, but I think the general idea is that the femme fatale is supposed to expose a weakness in the male character (if done well) and functions closer to an antagonist. It may seem a more antiquated idea, but films like Chinatown show the power of playing with and subverting it.

Characters like Black Widow and Miranda stand on their own, and have 'outgrown' the term. If you were talking about a male character with those same traits there is no need for a term like that.

I definitely get what you're saying. In a sense the term is perhaps a bit outdated in certain cases. Still, I expect it will continue to be used for historical reasons. A lot of the changes we're talking about are only very recent. So... it will be a while before some of the cultural baggage is completely shed.

[hot_heart]

True, and that's why I will fight it!

Especially when it does a disservice to Miranda.

[CEO Fun Buttons]

hot_heart wrote...

I'm only playing with you, but no, it's a little more complex than that.

Generally, a femme fatale is a danger to a man with whom she becomes involved. Either because she is really manipulating things, or carries some dark secret that may come to harm the man who tries to protect her.

I'm playing a little bit of catch up, and I apologize if my points have already been made, but I think you could see Miranda as a Femme Fatale character in the beginning of ME2. I even think Bioware said theywent with black hair instead of Yvonne's blonde to stay more in line with the Femme Fatale look.

What's great about Miranda is that if you invest any amount of time into her character, she quickly grows beyond a simple characteristic into one of the series' deeper charcters.  Players that didn't bother trying to learn anything about her, though, just saw her as an aloof, dangerous, and attractive woman.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

I did read awesome plot idea where Miranda was a real femme fatale. Miranda faked her defection from Cerberus, was a temp squaddie, but took Leng's role when her true colors were revealed after the coup and berated Shepard for his stupidity in trusting her. She could become an ally again, and her feelings were genuine, but she was a dangerous enemy.

It would be neat if that happened if she wasn't loyal in ME2. The only thing is that I wouldn't  be so willing to take her back, I trusted Anders in DA2 and that came back to bite me.

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

True, and that's why I will fight it!

Especially when it does a disservice to Miranda.

Understood 

I think it's probably ok if the term itself evolves, though. But...certainly we would need to keep track of the various possible meanings.

[o Ventus]

CEO Fun Buttons wrote...

I'm playing a little bit of catch up, and I apologize if my points have already been made, but I think you could see Miranda as a Femme Fatale character in the beginning of ME2. I even think Bioware said theywent with black hair instead of Yvonne's blonde to stay more in line with the Femme Fatale look.

The dark hair color came from her outfit, actually. It was originally going to be blonde, but they made her a brunette once they finalized her white suit and felt that blonde would look awkward.

And I agree with that. Some blonde hair mods for Miranda look really goofy on Miranda in the white suit.

[hot_heart]

CEO Fun Buttons wrote...
I'm playing a little bit of catch up, and I apologize if my points have already been made, but I think you could see Miranda as a Femme Fatale character in the beginning of ME2. I even think Bioware said theywent with black hair instead of Yvonne's blonde to stay more in line with the Femme Fatale look.

I agree. They toy with the idea very briefly, in that she shows up and shoots a guy dead just like that. There was the undertone that perhaps she was the traitor. Problem is, BioWare do seem a little fickle in some regards. Especially since you already see her talking up Shepard's achievements and watching over him/her during that bit in the intro. And, as has been said, 'femme fatale' was the look of the character more than anything.

I can see that, as with Mordin and the genophage stuff, they went to the effort of giving the characters more depth.

[o Ventus]

hot_heart wrote...

CEO Fun Buttons wrote...
I'm playing a little bit of catch up, and I apologize if my points have already been made, but I think you could see Miranda as a Femme Fatale character in the beginning of ME2. I even think Bioware said theywent with black hair instead of Yvonne's blonde to stay more in line with the Femme Fatale look.

I agree. They toy with the idea very briefly, in that she shows up and shoots a guy dead just like that. There was the undertone that perhaps she was the traitor. Problem is, BioWare do seem a little fickle in some regards. Especially since you already see her talking up Shepard's achievements and watching over him/her during that bit in the intro. And, as has been said, 'femme fatale' was the look of the character more than anything.

I can see that, as with Mordin and the genophage stuff, they went to the effort of giving the characters more depth.

Agreed. I would also nominate Thane (Especially so in the romance path) and Legion for depth.

Of course, I think ME2 is the best of the series when it comes to characterization.

[CEO Fun Buttons]

o Ventus wrote...

Agreed. I would also nominate Thane (Especially so in the romance path) and Legion for depth.

Of course, I think ME2 is the best of the series when it comes to characterization.

I think we can all agree on that. I'd go as far as to say ME2 is the best in the series, but something tells me that's a majority held belief.

[yesikareyes]

When will we ever get more Miranda?

[flemm]

yesikareyes wrote...

When will we ever get more Miranda?

I'm afraid I cannot answer that question

Maybe Miranda knows...

Modifié par flemm, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .

[jtav]

Never, I imagine. Bar maybe an email.

[fiendishchicken]

yesikareyes wrote...

When will we ever get more Miranda?

We'll get a 10 word email, maybe, MAYBE, after Liara gets her own anime film, another comic book arc, another LotSB dlc, a closure dlc, and some type of physical token (dog tags, etc.) dlc. If we're REALLY lucky, we might get a team uniform dlc pack that has EDI wearing armor similar to what Miranda got in ME2. Mind you, none of this will happen until a very long time from now. 

And then all the Liara fans will cry bloody murder when we get that 10 word email after they have gotten their additional 10+ hours of dlc in addition to the anime film, comic books, and probably regular novel too. They'll denounce us as shallow underage boys who only like Miranda because of 'DAT ASS' and then whine about how BioWare never gives Liara enough focus and content.

And BioWare will see this and decide that Miranda did get too much content and from then on acknowledge her as the reason why ME3 was so disappointing then proceed to make an additional 4 hour DLC featuring Liara and her pregnancy to 5 blue babies.

Because the Mass Effect fanbase is awesome like that.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:32 .

[CEO Fun Buttons]

Such Negative Nancys in this thread. Bioware will surely deliver the goods! ...Right? ...Guys?

[yesikareyes]

A seductive e-mail would be great, Thank you!