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[Babi_Siha]

enayasoul wrote...

Found this image... definitely eye candy for all us females out there... What do you think Miranda's reaction would be. https://p.twimg.com/...zPhCIAEfQiU.jpg

I love you! :happy: Though the Avenger is almost a deal breaker, that weapon looks like a fish and you don't want anything related to fish smell near the private areas. The Argus would be more suitable.

I'm sure Miranda would love to find Shepard like that just for her.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The thing is, the term refers to that plot function the character type isn't locked into any more, so "femme fatale" doesn't really fit any more. Miranda would fit the type in Dean's plot outline, but she works perfectly as a character, with all her traits intact, without the element of being detrimental to the hero. 

Character types like Miranda need a new term, describing a superset of the original femme fatale.

That's probably true. But, on the other hand, I don't think it's surprising that it's used, since there is a relationship there (an evolution of the archetype, I guess we could say). At a certain point it's a new species entirely, of course.

[LanceSolous13]

Now that I think about it, Didn't Miranda mention how bad it would look if she tried to visit Shepard and the idea of Cerberus' Second in Command breaking in would look horribly bad? Would that somehow qualify?

[flemm]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Now that I think about it, Didn't Miranda mention how bad it would look if she tried to visit Shepard and the idea of Cerberus' Second in Command breaking in would look horribly bad? Would that somehow qualify?

Well, it's a reference to the idea that Miranda is perceived as shady due to the Cerberus connection. But... it's more of an off-hand remark.

When discussing Miranda as a character, it's really ME2 that's worth discussing imo. The ME3 role, while it has some bright spots, doesn't really bear thinking about in the way that the ME2 role does. 

That line you cite is an example of that. We should be hearing about *why* Miranda left Cerberus, what her plans are now, what she thinks of the fact that Cerberus troops are now remote-controlled zombies, etc.

Instead there is a line that basically retcons her as 2nd-in-command of the organisation, which she wasn't previously, indeed it's not even clear that Cerberus has this type of command structure. All for no particular reason. So... meh.

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Now that I think about it, Didn't Miranda mention how bad it would look if she tried to visit Shepard and the idea of Cerberus' Second in Command breaking in would look horribly bad? Would that somehow qualify?

Well, it's a reference to the idea that Miranda is perceived as shady due to the Cerberus connection. But... it's more of an off-hand remark.

When discussing Miranda as a character, it's really ME2 that's worth discussing imo. The ME3 role, while it has some bright spots, doesn't really bear thinking about in the way that the ME2 role does. 

That line you cite is an example of that. We should be hearing about *why* Miranda left Cerberus, what her plans are now, what she thinks of the fact that Cerberus troops are now remote-controlled zombies, etc.

Instead there is a line that basically retcons her as 2nd-in-command of the organisation, which she wasn't previously, indeed it's not even clear that Cerberus has this type of command structure. All for no particular reason. So... meh.

I don't think Cerberus really has a second in command. Miranda was probably the top operative or officer, and she was definitely being groomed by TIM to replace him one day, but I don't think Cerberus has a command structure outside of it's military division. 

[CrutchCricket]

fiendishchicken wrote...
I don't think Cerberus really has a second in command. Miranda was probably the top operative or officer, and she was definitely being groomed by TIM to replace him one day, but I don't think Cerberus has a command structure outside of it's military division. 

That's probably what made her second in command then.

[kookie28]

flemm wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Now that I think about it, Didn't Miranda mention how bad it would look if she tried to visit Shepard and the idea of Cerberus' Second in Command breaking in would look horribly bad? Would that somehow qualify?

Well, it's a reference to the idea that Miranda is perceived as shady due to the Cerberus connection. But... it's more of an off-hand remark.

When discussing Miranda as a character, it's really ME2 that's worth discussing imo. The ME3 role, while it has some bright spots, doesn't really bear thinking about in the way that the ME2 role does. 

That line you cite is an example of that. We should be hearing about *why* Miranda left Cerberus, what her plans are now, what she thinks of the fact that Cerberus troops are now remote-controlled zombies, etc.

Instead there is a line that basically retcons her as 2nd-in-command of the organisation, which she wasn't previously, indeed it's not even clear that Cerberus has this type of command structure. All for no particular reason. So... meh.

Lazy writing I guess.

[MisterJB]

I don't think TIM ever planned on being replaced. If anything, had the Reapers not attacked and Shepard never got involved with Cerberus, I picture him still managing the organization at the ripe age of 300 years in a manner much similar to Robert House.

kookie28 wrote...
Lazy writing I guess.

More like an attempt at reassuring us that Miranda is, indeed, awesome without actually showing it.
Or it could simply be a symptom of the ME series losing much nuance and just assuming that the only person we ever saw on Cronos besides TIM must be the second in command.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[jtav]

And the irony is that it makes her morally much worse than ME2 because the 2IC being so clueless beggars belief. And she doesn't care at all what they've become.

[Stalker]

fiendishchicken wrote...
I don't think Cerberus really has a second in command. Miranda was probably the top operative or officer, and she was definitely being groomed by TIM to replace him one day, but I don't think Cerberus has a command structure outside of it's military division. 

It doesn't. That sentence was just the result of stupid writing. Like everything concerning Cerberus in ME3.

In ME2, EDI clearly explains Cerberus: TIM is the coordinator of many task-specific cells. Miranda is nothing more than one leader of a cell. That structure all makes sense for a organization as controversial as Cerberus.

In ME3 they completely retconned that and that's what honestly grinds my gears. They have official bases and fleets, all marked with giant logos. Making Cerberus a real military-grade company was a huge mistake and waste of potential in my opinion.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And the irony is that it makes her morally much worse than ME2 because the 2IC being so clueless beggars belief. And she doesn't care at all what they've become.

It might to the extent that it actually made any sense. But it doesn't, so it just boils down to: it doesn't mean anything.

It's clear in ME2 that Cerberus operates as cells. Miranda is a high-ranking operative, she has led certain cells, and she is one of the few who confers directly with TIM. But she doesn't deal directly with the other cells. Cerberus doesn't have a 2nd-in-command.

It's only from that point of view that Miranda's character makes any sense. And it *does* make sense (in ME2).

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

And the irony is that it makes her morally much worse than ME2 because the 2IC being so clueless beggars belief. And she doesn't care at all what they've become.

I believe we talked about this earlier. The "promotion" if she is indeed a traditional 2IC might've been fairly recent relatve to ME2. Does not means she would suddenly know all the dirty little secrets.

Not commenting in ME3 is of course another issue.

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

It's clear in ME2 that Cerberus operates as cells. Miranda is a high-ranking operative, she has led certain cells, and she is one of the few who confers directly with TIM. But she doesn't deal directly with the other cells. Cerberus doesn't have a 2nd-in-command.

It's only from that point of view that Miranda's character makes any sense. And it *does* make sense (in ME2).

This.

What's-his-name that wrote Miranda in this game did next to no research on her character.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I believe we talked about this earlier. The "promotion" if she is indeed a traditional 2IC might've been fairly recent relatve to ME2. Does not means she would suddenly know all the dirty little secrets.

The line is romance-only (again, for no particular reason), but you get it whether or not Miranda leaves Cerberus at the Collector Base. So, I don't think the idea that it was a promotion between 2 and 3 fits (though I do remember it was suggested at one point).

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I believe we talked about this earlier. The "promotion" if she is indeed a traditional 2IC might've been fairly recent relatve to ME2. Does not means she would suddenly know all the dirty little secrets.

The line is romance-only (again, for no particular reason), but you get it whether or not Miranda leaves Cerberus at the Collector Base. So, I don't think the idea that it was a promotion between 2 and 3 fits (though I do remember it was suggested at one point).

I think he meant recent leading-up to ME2.

[Dr. Doctor]

The problem is that the 2IC line is just a random remark, it isn't elaborated on. Heck it's the only line in ME3 where Miranda brings up her past with Cerberus. Someone must have been sleeping at the wheel when writing her character.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

I think he meant recent leading-up to ME2.

Well, Crutch will clarify, but I think at one point it was suggested that the line might be exclusive to keeping the Base. That might allow for the idea that she was promoted between 2 and 3. Even then, it's a stretch because Cerberus doesn't have that type of command structure, so why the change? And why accept a promotion, then leave? This would need to be accounted for.

But anyway, I believe we have since verified that the line is specific to the romance, but not to keeping or destroying the base.

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:45 .

[hot_heart]

Final Fantasy 13 Fangirl wrote...
Did any one else start out hating Miranda in their first playthrough of ME2?

Nah, it was love at first sight. Shooting a guy in the neck is the quickest way to my heart. Wait, that came out wrong...

I've probably said this many times already but I viewed the 'second-in-command' thing as part of a shorthand, off-hand/wry summarisation rather than a retcon. A Cerberus second-in-command is how the Alliance might view someone like her, even if Shepard and her know it's not true.

Approaching it from the writer's perspective they probably needed something simple and effective for new players. <_<

So, rather than her saying something like, "A visit from someone with my history would have been disastrous", she has to mention the Cerberus part (even though Shepard knows that already). But then the writer probably figured that, actually, the player is going to see defecting Cerberus members, maybe they need to find a way to 'justify' her absence...so they try and emphasise how significant a role she played in the organisation.

In writing with the Miranda scenes in the game, there are clear signifiers that certain parts contain more exposition than required and it sits at odds with what the characters/established audience would already know. If you look at the control chip conversation, for example, yes, Shepard says she'd mentioned it before but then she says "There's more to it" before continuing to repeat information from the start of ME2.

/endrant

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Approaching it from the writer's perspective they probably needed something simple and effective for new players. <_<

New players will never hear the line, as it is romance-specific.

Also, keep in mind, that at the time of that first dialogue, all a new player will have seen of Cerberus, more or less, is TIM and his zombie troops. So, a new player might reasonably wonder why this attractive, friendly individual once worked for them. So, I think the absence of any explanation for Miranda leaving Cerberus is even less justifiable from a new player's perspective.

At least a returning player can take a guess based on ME2 (not that a guess should be necessary).

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:14 .

[hot_heart]

Hmm, well, I still go with the wry shorthand reason. She doesn't need to mention the Cerberus part otherwise.

Plus, there's the possibility it may have been written before the dialogue was tweaked, and bits moved around, so wasn't originally romance-specific.

Modifié par hot_heart, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

Approaching it from the writer's perspective they probably needed something simple and effective for new players. <_<

New players will never hear the line, as it is romance-specific.

Also, keep in mind, that at the time of that first dialogue, all a new player will have seen of Cerberus, more or less, is TIM and his zombie troops. So, a new player might reasonably wonder why this attractive, friendly individual once worked for them. So, I think the absence of any explanation for Miranda leaving Cerberus is even less justifiable from a new player's perspective.

At least a returning player can take a guess based on ME2 (not that a guess should be necessary).

Another Previously on Mass Effect might have worked better than the set of Codex entries we have now.

[hot_heart]

That would've been good. And any excuse for more Martin Sheen.

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Plus, there's the possibility it may have been written before the dialogue was tweaked, and bits moved around, so wasn't originally romance-specific.

The line as whole only makes sense within the context of the romance (breaking in to see Shepard).

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:21 .

[hot_heart]

Like I said, it can be tweaked, rearranged and such. It happens when you're writing.

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Like I said, it can be tweaked, rearranged and such. It happens when you're writing.

Possibly. The "shorthand" explanation probably works best as a justification. But it's a justification. Really the phrase as written should not be there because it makes no sense. Miranda would never use "former 2nd in command" as a shorthand for "ex-Cerberus operative," given that she was never 2nd in command, and the organisation never even *had* a 2nd in command.

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .