82210 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

Approaching it from the writer's perspective they probably needed something simple and effective for new players. <_<

New players will never hear the line, as it is romance-specific.

Also, keep in mind, that at the time of that first dialogue, all a new player will have seen of Cerberus, more or less, is TIM and his zombie troops. So, a new player might reasonably wonder why this attractive, friendly individual once worked for them. So, I think the absence of any explanation for Miranda leaving Cerberus is even less justifiable from a new player's perspective.

At least a returning player can take a guess based on ME2 (not that a guess should be necessary).

Another Previously on Mass Effect might have worked better than the set of Codex entries we have now.

Who the hell even wrote the codex and journal for ME3? Both are terribly done, with the codex being severely neutered and the journal being completely useless half the time.

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

Miranda would never use "former 2nd in command" as a shorthand for "ex-Cerberus operative," given that she was never 2nd in command, and the organisation never even *had* a 2nd in command.

She was the second in command in an organization that never had a second in command.

She is the most interesting woman in the world.

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...
Possibly. The "shorthand" explanation probably works best as a justification. But it's a justification. Really the
phrase as written should not be there because it makes no sense. Miranda would never use "former 2nd in command" as a shorthand for "ex-Cerberus operative," given that she was never 2nd in command, and the
organisation never even *had* a 2nd in command.

No, I see that, and I agree. But if she's labelling herself as the Alliance see her, that might be what she'd say.

Obviously I'm just going with the most positive reading. There's a chance the writer wasn't too fussed about details, maybe they just thought "She spoke directly to TIM, she must be his 'right-hand woman'."

Modifié par hot_heart, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[fiendishchicken]

hot_heart wrote...

flemm wrote...
Possibly. The "shorthand" explanation probably works best as a justification. But it's a justification. Really the
phrase as written should not be there because it makes no sense. Miranda would never use "former 2nd in command" as a shorthand for "ex-Cerberus operative," given that she was never 2nd in command, and the
organisation never even *had* a 2nd in command.

No, I see that, and I agree. But if she's labelling herself as the Alliance see her, that might be what she'd say.

Obviously I'm just going with the most positive reading. There's a chance the writer wasn't too fussed about details, maybe they just thought "She spoke directly to TIM, she must be his 'right-hand woman'."

I can see her as TIM's right hand woman, but that doesn't mean she has to be the 2IC of Cerberus. I think she does however have an extensive knowledge of a lot of other cells within Cerberus. There are going to be things she doesn't know about of course, but I think TIM uses her as an advisor as much as an operative. But that's just coming from me. To put it in a different way, Miranda probably oversee's various other cells, makes sure they're on track and not going rogue, and when there is a cell that absolutely needs to succeed such as Lazarus, she'll directly take charge of the cell herself.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

She was the second in command in an organization that never had a second in command.

She is the most interesting woman in the world.

LoL

That's probably the best explanation. It's like... a paradox... or something

Miranda: Let's have dinner at McDonalds.

Shepard: What? Those don't exist in this universe.

Miranda: Yes, it's impossible, but that's never stopped me before...

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:48 .

[lillitheris]

So, what’s the actual problem with Miranda having been Cerberus’ second in command (inasmuch as the organization had one)? Why is it an issue? She clearly had far more access than anyone we know of.

Sure, she probably didn’t have business cards with the title, but de facto. Is this just something related to the “retaking” of Cerberus, or not wanting to own the mistakes of the past?


(I don’t really think there’s exposition needed for players who only play ME3…because screw them if they can’t be bothered to play ME2 first. ‘Perfect point for jumping in’ was such a dumb idea.)

Modifié par lillitheris, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[fiendishchicken]

lillitheris wrote...

So, what’s the actual problem with Miranda having been Cerberus’ second in command (inasmuch as the organization had one)? Why is it an issue? She clearly had far more access than anyone we know of.

Sure, she probably didn’t have business cards with the title, but de facto. Is this just something related to the “retaking” of Cerberus, or not wanting to own the mistakes of the past?


(I don’t really think there’s exposition needed for players who only play ME3…because screw them if they can’t be bothered to play ME2 first. ‘Perfect point for jumping in’ was such a dumb idea.)

The way Cerberus is organized refutes the notion of having a second in command. Cerberus is divided into task oriented cells, and while it is my belief that Miranda is, or was, an overseer of many projects with privileged access to a lot of the going ons of the group, there was still parts of the organization she wasn't aware of. . Remember Cerberus had different organizations such as a Science Division, a Military Division, and a Political/Intelligence/Espionage Division. Miranda was an operative that would probably move about both the Science and Political division and have significant knowledge of the military division, but there would be stuff TIM wouldn't want her to see, and unless the needs of a cell directly called for her to take a decisive leadership role, she would only have a basic knowledge of the groups intended goal.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

So, what’s the actual problem with Miranda having been Cerberus’ second in command (inasmuch as the organization had one)?

Well, it didn't have one, and it isn't structured that way. Had it been structured that way, then it might not be a problem, I guess. As is, it's not very coherent.

Example: at Cronos station, it's suggested that the Normandy crew in ME2 was just a front meant to fool Shepard. So, what does that mean for Miranda? That she was lying to Shepard? That makes no sense. She clearly wasn't in 2, and, in 3, there is no suggestion of that either.

Modifié par flemm, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:27 .

[Lawrence0294]

Hey everyone (anyone remember me ^^)

After 3 weeks in the hospital, i was finally able to play the EC. Though it didn't necessarily give me what i wanted ( a reunion), they gave me enough to headcanon one and, well we finally got a fabulous flashback:

Modifié par kratos0294, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:35 .

[Vertigo_1]

Yep, and hope things are ok with you (hospital thing)

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

So, what’s the actual problem with Miranda having been Cerberus’ second in command (inasmuch as the organization had one)?

Well, it didn't have one, and it isn't structured that way. Had it been structured that way, then it might not be a problem, I guess. As is, it's not very coherent.

Example: at Cronos station, it's suggested that the Normandy crew in ME2 was just a front meant to fool Shepard. So, what does that mean for Miranda? That she was lying to Shepard? That makes no sense. She clearly wasn't in 2, and, in 3, there is no suggestion of that either.

Yeah i sort of headcanon Miranda as effectively joint second in command with several others. TIM wouldn't want one person with that sort of authority below him but he does need effective, competent heads of division. Miranda is that.

Yeah that Cronos video is utterly stupid. Everyone on the Normandy was apparently Cerberus Lite according to it. That's a sodding joke. Cerberus is full of good people as well as there being some nuts. So i;ll ignore that idioicy just like i'll ignore the stupid video where Shep reacts to the knowledge he was dead. Shep spoke to Jacob he knows this and his girlfriend is Miranda so he knows the intimate details. Stop with this drivel.

[wright1978]

kratos0294 wrote...

Hey everyone (anyone remember me ^^)

After 3 weeks in the hospital, i was finally able to play the EC. Though it didn't necessarily give me what i wanted ( a reunion), they gave me enough to headcanon one and, well we finally got a fabulous flashback:

Yep you are not alone. I'm equally annoyed at the lack of reunion or any proper expansion of Shep lives scene. Like you there was enough in EC to make the game playable again and much improved flashbacks were cool to see.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I think he meant recent leading-up to ME2.

Well, Crutch will clarify, but I think at one point it was suggested that the line might be exclusive to keeping the Base. That might allow for the idea that she was promoted between 2 and 3. Even then, it's a stretch because Cerberus doesn't have that type of command structure, so why the change? And why accept a promotion, then leave? This would need to be accounted for.

But anyway, I believe we have since verified that the line is specific to the romance, but not to keeping or destroying the base.

Yes I meant shortly before ME2. I also believe the position was meant more as a sucessor/apprentice type thing than an XO like she was on the Normandy.

Miranda might also have been meant as a safeguard, to make sure TIM doesn't go off the deep end too much. I like the idea that he would expected her to step in and forcibly stop him if he were to become compromised. Which of course he did. But she was long gone by then.

[Ieldra]

o Ventus wrote...

flemm wrote...

It's clear in ME2 that Cerberus operates as cells. Miranda is a high-ranking operative, she has led certain cells, and she is one of the few who confers directly with TIM. But she doesn't deal directly with the other cells. Cerberus doesn't have a 2nd-in-command.

It's only from that point of view that Miranda's character makes any sense. And it *does* make sense (in ME2).

This.

What's-his-name that wrote Miranda in this game did next to no research on her character.

Jay Watamaniuk wrote her. I blame him for the flawed characterization and the annoying focus on Oriana to the exclusion of everything else, but I'm not sure if he would include something like Miranda's promotion on his own. Perhaps they wanted to add more controversy to convince more players to let her die. That would somehow fit the scenario, sadly. Or it was an attempt to make her appear more important in games where you kept the base. In that case, it totally failed because no Cerberus aspect ever came up in a conversation with her. To say nothing of Cronos Station, grrr....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[Ieldra]

kratos0294 wrote...
Hey everyone (anyone remember me ^^)

After 3 weeks in the hospital, i was finally able to play the EC. Though it didn't necessarily give me what i wanted ( a reunion), they gave me enough to headcanon one and, well we finally got a fabulous flashback:

Nice you're back. As for the flashback, this is one of the few Miranda-related things they did right - eventually. It's a very nice image.

[Lawrence0294]

I see the Jack and Miranda Thread is still sticked. Could it be a sign.....speculations as usual. I had quite a lot of pages to catch up.......so Miranda likes ponies 

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Jay Watamaniuk wrote her. I blame him for the flawed characterization and the annoying focus on Oriana to the exclusion of everything else, but I'm not sure if he would include something like Miranda's promotion on his own.

I wouldn't blame him for the general direction of the character. I imagine there were 'storyline' meetings where the lead writer essentially has the final say on what happens. Given how junior he was, he probably couldn't influence much there.

Though, even if the writing team had said, "Here, you have these scenes. These are the main points you are writing towards", he possibly could have framed it in a different way. He didn't exactly have much to work with though, unfortunately.

[hot_heart]

Oh, and back to the talk on songs for Miranda. I love this one.

Modifié par hot_heart, 18 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[Lawrence0294]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, and back to the talk on songs for Miranda. I love this one.

Haha thats a nice one. There is one i like to give to Shepard and Miranda, a real hero by college
 
Makes me think of Miranda, that she is a real human, not just an experiment from her father. It goes the same way with Shepard and project Lazarus, he is still a human being.

[flemm]

kratos0294 wrote...

Hey everyone (anyone remember me ^^)

After 3 weeks in the hospital, i was finally able to play the EC. Though it didn't necessarily give me what i wanted ( a reunion), they gave me enough to headcanon one and, well we finally got a fabulous flashback:

*snip*

Nice to have you back, hope everything's good.

The flashback is very nice, yeah

[CEO Fun Buttons]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nice you're back. As for the flashback, this is one of the few Miranda-related things they did right - eventually. It's a very nice image.

The EC was the point that I felt Bioware really gave those that romanced Miranda, as well as the other ME2 squaddies for that matter, the middle finger. They've gone on record saying that it's the LI that "refuses to put your name up on the board". Saying, in so many words, that "of course your LI would be on the Normandy, you wouldn't be stupid enough to romance one of the ME2 characters, would you??" Didn't even give me the consolation of having my bro Garrus handle my funural, instead letting the British chick that I barely talked to deal with it.

How difficult would it have been to model Miranda throwing away the plaque at some ceremony on Earth, anyway?

[o Ventus]

CEO Fun Buttons wrote...

The EC was the point that I felt Bioware really gave those that romanced Miranda, as well as the other ME2 squaddies for that matter, the middle finger. They've gone on record saying that it's the LI that "refuses to put your name up on the board". Saying, in so many words, that "of course your LI would be on the Normandy, you wouldn't be stupid enough to romance one of the ME2 characters, would you??" Didn't even give me the consolation of having my bro Garrus handle my funural, instead letting the British chick that I barely talked to deal with it.

How difficult would it have been to model Miranda throwing away the plaque at some ceremony on Earth, anyway?

Quoting for truth, and bolding for emphasis.

Modifié par o Ventus, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:01 .

[jtav]

People make too much of romance. The EC saved her by implying that she was out doing something interesting. I'd have liked a goodbye, but the generic memorial is no matter.

[YoMoFoZ]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, and back to the talk on songs for Miranda. I love this one.

Naked! Fits them, especially Miranda. 

Modifié par YoMoFoZ, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:46 .

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

People make too much of romance. The EC saved her by implying that she was out doing something interesting. I'd have liked a goodbye, but the generic memorial is no matter.

People like the romance content.

Why do you care?