82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

BDTS is nowhere near Overlord. There's a huge difference between arresting a terrorist and having hostages die as a necessary consequence and suborning torture.

[Arijharn]

naledgeborn wrote...
Women and their shirt stealing ways... I will never understand. 

ROFL, See MsShiaKatieKrios! I'm not the only instance of a man who gets baffled by this behaviour!

I call for all women who steal their partners shirts and/or boxers to account for their actions!

[Arijharn]

I don't think the Overlord decision is about 'supporting torture' (sorry; I'm not sure how I'm supposed to interpret 'suborning' so I'm just reading it as 'supporting') in some way, it's about not going to war with the Geth. I don't think David is worth the cost of potentially millions of people though, I just don't. I want him to be looked after properly (preferably not by his brother) but that's not to say I want the project dismantled because I thought Gavin went of the rails in his desperation to prove results.

[Perfecti0nist]

Yeah, even my ruthless Renegade Shepard couldn't leave David there. He may have low morals, but there's a line that he won't cross. At least for now. He supports torture when it's necessary, but Overlord just seemed pointless.

The ending of that DLC was superb. After I finished it I needed to have a cigarette and think for a while.

Modifié par Perfecti0nist, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:29 .

[naledgeborn]

Actually they aren't the same. Project Overlord was a success in that it accomplished what it set out to do, control the Geth. Where the results of Overlord will undoubtedly stop the conflict with the Geth, capturing Balak won't guarantee the safety of Human colonists from Batarian terrorism. Showing David in that contraption was for shock value. If there ever will be a Paragon decision that will bite us in the ass this is it. I'm ready to pay the piper.

And to keep this Miranda relevant I think she would be torn between leaving David and freeing him.

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

australian is a pretty good accent to use because it is kind of classless in sound - it can fit anywhere and doesn't denote background, whereas english is pretty easy to identify (see lara croft) background, and american is, well, grating.

Are you saying I'm classless?!

I didn't think Yvonne was speaking in a decidedly Australian accent in ME2 though. I think a couple of times it shone through (like, when she's saying "You ****!" during her LM) but I didn't think it was 'Australian. Maybe it's because I'm actually Australian though that I don't hear it, and the stereotypical Australian is actually bush Australia, which means us cityslickers really hear it, which means it's just as funny for us as it is for everyone else when we do...

haha LOL like you don't know what i meant...  classless as in without class rather than lacking class :innocent:

yeah my wife always nicks my tops - don't know what's so attractive about them when she has her own stuff... then i never have anything to wear! 

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[The Elder King]

The problem with Overlord is, that after Legion's mission the heretics, the Geth who wanted to fight the organic races, have been destroyed or reprogrammed. What is the point of leaving David here? The Geth don't care about organics, and don't wish to fight them. David could be useful to control the "true" Geth, but since my Shepard don't want to control the Geth, I don't see why he should leave David here (aside the torture reason).

[MisterJB]

Arijharn wrote...

I've done both honestly. Funnily enough I feel worse about leaving him in overlord than I do saving the CB. At the end of the day I reason that Overlord is useless if the Geth aren't otherwise hostile,

Useless?  Having an army of synthetics at the service of humanity is anything but useless.
Had we had the Geth at our command when we first made contact with the alien races, I can assure you that the Turians would think twice before trying to turns us into a client race.

jtav wrote...

Overlord is the decision I can never justify, and I would despise any squad mate who advocated it. And I could live with the deaths on that.

What? At that point in time, what Cerberus knew about the Geth was that they worshipped the Reapers, were powerful enough to force the Quarians into self-imposed exile, didn't need to sleep or eat, seemed to have an inherent hate of organics and didn't need to wait decades in order to replenish their numbers.
The last thing we need is a war with the Geth expecially with the Reapers on our doorstep. Gavin Archer was completely justified in what he did. I don't like Project Overlord, not a little bit, but I can see the merit behind it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juillet 2011 - 02:07 .

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I've done both honestly. Funnily enough I feel worse about leaving him in overlord than I do saving the CB. At the end of the day I reason that Overlord is useless if the Geth aren't otherwise hostile,

Useless?  Having an army of synthetics at the service of humanity is anything but useless.
Had we had the Geth at our command when we first made contact with the alien races, I can assure you that the Turians would think twice before trying to turns us into a client race.

jtav wrote...

Overlord is the decision I can never justify, and I would despise any squad mate who advocated it. And I could live with the deaths on that.

What? At that point in time, what Cerberus knew about the Geth was that they worshipped the Reapers, were powerful enough to force the Quarians into self-imposed exile, didn't need to sleep or eat, seemed to have an inherent hate of organics and didn't need to wait decades in order to replenish their numbers.
The last thing we need is a war with the Geth expecially with the Reapers on our doorstep. Gavin Archer was completely justified in what he did. I don't like Project Overlord, not a little bit, but I can see the merit behind it.

there's no indication that he could control all the geth, particularly if they all end up being clustered together in a dyson-sphere-alike, hell just controlling a few in the facility made him go off the deep end, hence all the trouble, in short the dlc was a bit of a let-down as it was kinda pointless beyond helping him out.

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
Actually they aren't the same. Project Overlord was a success in that it accomplished what it set out to do, control the Geth. Where the results of Overlord will undoubtedly stop the conflict with the Geth, capturing Balak won't guarantee the safety of Human colonists from Batarian terrorism. Showing David in that contraption was for shock value. If there ever will be a Paragon decision that will bite us in the ass this is it. I'm ready to pay the piper.

There's no "undoubtedly" about it. IIRC, the project established that communication with the geth was possible. Nothing more. They haven't made any progress in manipulating the geth through their religious impulse. I also don't think this decision will have much of an effect in ME3. Why? Because it's a DLC and unlike LotSB and Arrival, not one of the "bridging" DLCs which are part of the main plotline. Granted, that's not in-world reasoning and should have no effect on the decision we make in the game.

The problem I have with this decision is that in-your-face immediate evil whose victim is a human evokes a stronger emotional response than any other kind. I think killing the Rachni queen is very much worse than leaving David to the project. You're consigning a whole species to death, what's a single human compared to that? I don't trust emotions when it comes to moral dilemmas.

And to keep this Miranda relevant I think she would be torn between leaving David and freeing him.

I think her opinion of this depends on how necessary she considers control of the geth. If you do Overlord after acquiring Legion, even more after A House Divided, I could see her saying that it's not worth it. The geth may be unreliable, but not more so than any other species. They're not proven enemies any more and might even be allies. If you do Overlord before Reaper IFF, with the "knowledge" that the geth are implacable enemies, I think she would justify the project and leave David there. Not that she'd feel comfortable with such a decision. But she'd do it.

So, if you - or anyone - don't want to imagine that Miranda might argue for leaving David with the project: play Overlord after Reaper IFF.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
there's no indication that he could control all the geth

And yet, Shepard is alive. The only way to know what is or is not possible is to experiment.

particularly if they all end up being clustered together in a dyson-sphere-alike,

Cerberus should sabotage their efforts, then. Secretly, of course. We don't want humanity to suffer the reprisals.

just controlling a few in the facility made him go off the deep end, hence all the trouble,

That's only because Gavin Archer didn't implement the necessary security measures. Inform TIM of what they were about to do, capture some Quarian scientists and convince them to cooperate, have a squad of Cerberus commandos or just an elite operative like Kai Leng ready to do what Shepard did to stop David Archer. Don't just connect to kid to the Geth hive mind and see what happens.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

End of the day, I'm pretty sure that Miri wouldn't let David remain with Archer. She'd send him to somewhere safe first before finding out what he knows. And that's why Miri and Carina Shepard nearly broke up and are still having a bit of a cold war till today. Yup, Carina let David stay with Archer. She's a b1tch like that.

@Ari, jebel, naledge

Hey, you guys had YOUR fun the night before and got us women all dirty. Now it's OUR turn to get something of yours dirty in return.

[MisterJB]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Btw, Miri's favourite song is pretty soothing. And she demands that you listen to it with her.

I could see John Shepard listening to this in the timeline between Arrival and his eventual re encounter with Miranda, just to feel a little closer to her.

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...
That's only because Gavin Archer didn't implement the necessary security measures. Inform TIM of what they were about to do, capture some Quarian scientists and convince them to cooperate, have a squad of Cerberus commandos or just an elite operative like Kai Leng ready to do what Shepard did to stop David Archer. Don't just connect to kid to the Geth hive mind and see what happens.

he went off the deep-end because his autistic brain couldn't cope with the extra noise in his brain, which is hardly surprising. there is no workaround for that. anyway the whole thing was iffy, as i previously said - it contravened everything legion said about the geth in the main game (self-correcting behaviour resisting hacking for more than a few seconds, and geth do not vocalise language which a human wouldn't be able to replicate whatever his mental condition - sounding like a modem does not make you one...).

[Jebel Krong]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

End of the day, I'm pretty sure that Miri wouldn't let David remain with Archer. She'd send him to somewhere safe first before finding out what he knows. And that's why Miri and Carina Shepard nearly broke up and are still having a bit of a cold war till today. Yup, Carina let David stay with Archer. She's a b1tch like that.

@Ari, jebel, naledge

Hey, you guys had YOUR fun the night before and got us women all dirty. Now it's OUR turn to get something of yours dirty in return.

haha yeah but I then have to go to work!!

still wouldn't be so bad for shep/miranda on the normandy where you're in charge and can wear what you want, i guess...  i can totally see miranda being a clothes-stealer!

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
he went off the deep-end because his autistic brain couldn't cope with the extra noise in his brain, which is hardly surprising. there is no workaround for that.

There is no way to prevent the suffering David Archer will have to endure. However, there are ways to prevent him from, in his pain, killing everything around himself.

[LuxDragon]

Me, two things I'm worried about.

I'm worried that David might cause the tech apocolypse. Sure, Cerberus might try to be 'careful', but now that we know they're the enemy for somewhat unknown reasons in ME 3, I doubt they'll be careful enough.

The point of Project Overlord was to control the geth/heretics. Cerberus controls Overlord. TIM controls Cerberus. Quite frankly put, I'd rather not have an army of synthetics under his control. I'm pretty sure the Alliance won't stand for it, so for the advancement of humanity, he'd probabaly throw down and kill a thousand humans to show that Cerberus is in charge, (Thus, negating Archer's argument). Sure it's not a million, but it's still bad.

Archer is a scientist. Does anything here think he's knows TIM at all?

EDIT: Oh, yeah. I did make Miranda a shirt stealer in my fic. Good times. Honestly, I don't complain when my ex-GF steals my shirts. Except that she looks too good in them that it distracts. A lot.

Modifié par LuxDragon, 27 juillet 2011 - 02:51 .

[jtav]

My attitude to Overlord is very simple. We cannot deliberately torture someone, no matter the consequences. As tragic and harsh as it may seem, war is the better option, if those are indeed our only options. Which I doubt.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

My attitude to Overlord is very simple. We cannot deliberately torture someone, no matter the consequences. As tragic and harsh as it may seem, war is the better option, if those are indeed our only options. Which I doubt.

? you can torture people - it happens all the time, on both sides of conflicts. it's not supposed to be terribly reliable as an information-gathering method though. morally of course it's wrong, but in a time of conflict what is worth more: one life or 100? or 1000? or a million? occasionally those lines have to be crossed and the judgements made.

as for overlord, it didn't become "deliberate" torture until it became apparent exactly what was going on, and even then it would only have become torture if you kept him in the machine after it came to light (i.e. the end-choice).

[Melra]

I'd never let Overlord continue. It's so wrong on so many levels, only someone with totally screwed up morals would let it continue. The benefit is very small compared to the cost and the risks.

[James2912]

Melrache you have the absolute best avatars in the history of the internet!

[jtav]

Cannot from a moral standpoint Jebel. The line cannot be crossed regardless of what the consequence may be. Does it happen? Yes. So do a host of other things. That doesn't make them less evil.

[Jebel Krong]

Melrache wrote...

I'd never let Overlord continue. It's so wrong on so many levels, only someone with totally screwed up morals would let it continue. The benefit is very small compared to the cost and the risks.

oh i'm not disputing that, as i said above, however i can see both shepard and miranda employing torture if it was judged necessary. hell personally i can see my shep not to far away from vasir tactics if it came down to it...

jtav wrote...

Cannot from a moral standpoint Jebel. The line cannot be crossed regardless of what the consequence may be. Does it happen? Yes. So do a host of other things. That doesn't make them less evil.

like many people you only judge from your own moral viewpoint: if the other side doesn't subscribe to it, then you are at an immediate disadvantage.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 juillet 2011 - 03:09 .

[jtav]

Yes, I am. And I'm saying that disadvantage is irrelevant when making the moral decision.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

Yes, I am. And I'm saying that disadvantage is irrelevant when making the moral decision.

not when it comes to survival it isn't.