82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

My attitude to Overlord is very simple. We cannot deliberately torture someone, no matter the consequences. As tragic and harsh as it may seem, war is the better option, if those are indeed our only options. Which I doubt.

So, given this situation: Either torture David Archer or suffer another war with Geth, knowying that even if we win, millions of humans will die, our colonies will burn and races like the Batarians or Turians will take advantage of our weakenened state. Knowying all of this, you would still prefer to go to war?

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .

[Ieldra]

About Overlord:

What you're overlooking, jtav, is that by agreeing to let David stay with the project, you are not agreeing to keeping him rigged up in that contraption. In fact, if you do agree (have you ever done that?), Shepard makes it very clear that that has to end. And he sounds really angry about it, too.

Also, recall the vidlogs in that overlaid space you're walking through in the end. The project doesn't necessarily involve torture. That's just what Archer did because he felt pressured to get results fast. The way Shepard talks if you take the Renegade decision, I can very well imagine he'll come back to check on David.

Which is why I have no problem envisioning Miranda to justify the project.

[Perfecti0nist]

My Shepard would use torture if he was presented with clear results and clear danger. Miranda probably would too. Like she said at Purgatory: "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty."

[naledgeborn]

Concerning Legion's connection to Overlord:

What a 'House Divided' did for Shepard either destroyed the Heretic Geth or absorbed them into the main Geth faction. Since we know that Geth communicate via shared "memories" or data what's stopping the Geth Collective from coming to the conclusion that organics will always be hostile and further solidifying the contempt the Heretic Geth originally had for organics? The re-written route is very dangerous and damn near justifies Project Overlord. There's no telling how the Geth will react after being re-intergrated with the Heretics.

And like JB said, what Gavin did was test a nuclear weapon (with no prior knowledge of it's effects) in the middle of the desert without telling anyone. That's unethical and shady. Governments and militaristic organizations make decisions like plugging in David everyday. Except they don't do it without taking the proper precautions. Gavin Archer is the idiot that made Overlord look like an atrocity instead of weapons and defense testing. It's because of his stupidity that I always send David to Grissom Academy.  

edited for grammar.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 27 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[Rusty Pabst]

http://masseffectscr...orites-part-24/

[naledgeborn]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

@Ari, jebel, naledge

Hey, you guys had YOUR fun the night before and got us women all dirty. Now it's OUR turn to get something of yours dirty in return.

LOL.  Stop pretending like it's a chore. You know you girls enjoy it as much as we do.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...

My attitude to Overlord is very simple. We cannot deliberately torture someone, no matter the consequences. As tragic and harsh as it may seem, war is the better option, if those are indeed our only options. Which I doubt.

So, given this situation: Either torture David Archer or suffer another war with Geth, knowying that even if we win, millions of humans will die, our colonies will burn and races like the Batarians or Turians will take advantage of our weakenened state. Knowying all of this, you would still prefer to go to war?

And why there should be another war with the Geth? (or are you referring to the situation before talking with Legion?). The Geth don't want to fight us. Legion clearly stated that they're going to fight the organics only if the organics interferee with their future.

to naledgeborn: The heretics didn't think that the organics are dangerous. The heretics thought that to reach the pinnacle of their evolution they should side with the Reapers. They didn't hate organics, and didn't think that they were dangerous for them. They fought organics only because their gods ordered them to fight.
And the "true" Geth already arrived to the conclusion to forge their destiny without the help of Reapers. It could happen that in ME3 there are Geth that are with the Reapers (I'm almost sure about that) but to choose the outcomes of ME2 based on the news about ME3 is meta-gaming. It's the same if some people destroyed the CB because they know now thart Cerberus is an ally of the Reapers.

[LuxDragon]

^ I'm with hhh89.

Overlord was started because of the heretics and only because of the heretics. They attacked organics because the Reapers ordered them to.

We had no idea that the geth race itself as a whole condemned that judgment. We had no idea they were innocent and we have no right to attack them because they 'might' attack us. Overlord became pointless once Legion revealed there was more than one faction of synthetics.

[Ieldra]

Some classic old fanart by our sadly absent old regular, Strikor2115 aka ConnorMaxon:

[LuxDragon]

Risky posting that. If BW hadn't done something similar in ME 1 (Don't be hypocrites!), they'd shut your post down.

[naledgeborn]

^ That is nice.

[LuxDragon]

jtav might like this:

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

So, given this situation: Either torture David Archer or suffer another war with Geth, knowying that even if we win, millions of humans will die, our colonies will burn and races like the Batarians or Turians will take advantage of our weakenened state. Knowying all of this, you would still prefer to go to war?

You're presenting a false choice.  You aren't torturing David because you know it will prevent a war with the geth.  You're torturing him because you hope it will prevent war with the geth.  You have no idea what results the research will produce, and whether those results would have anything to do with preventing a future war.  Not to mention that you don't know that not torturing him will somehow cause or allow a war to break out.

[LuxDragon]

Plus, there's still the threat that David could lose control and go armageddon again. *Shrugs* You never know.

[Ieldra]

TheMarshal wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So, given this situation: Either torture David Archer or suffer another war with Geth, knowying that even if we win, millions of humans will die, our colonies will burn and races like the Batarians or Turians will take advantage of our weakenened state. Knowying all of this, you would still prefer to go to war?

You're presenting a false choice.  You aren't torturing David because you know it will prevent a war with the geth.  You're torturing him because you hope it will prevent war with the geth.  You have no idea what results the research will produce, and whether those results would have anything to do with preventing a future war.  Not to mention that you don't know that not torturing him will somehow cause or allow a war to break out.

As I said, no more torture will be involved. Shepard, if you decide to leave David with the project, makes it clear that he eexpects the time of David in that contraption to be over. Whether that happens is another question, but you aren't justifying torture with this decision.

And neither would Miranda by supporting such a decision.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:51 .

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...

And why there should be another war with the Geth? (or are you referring to the situation before talking with Legion?).

I'm arguing from the viewpoint and information regarding the Geth Cerberus had when they started Project Overlord.

LuxDragon wrote...
Overlord became pointless once Legion revealed there was more than one faction of synthetics.

Pointless? Evil, yes. Pointless? No.
We are still talking about taking control of an army of billions of synthectics.

TheMarshal wrote...
You're presenting a false choice.  You aren't torturing David because you know it will prevent a war with the geth.  You're torturing him because you hope it will prevent war with the geth.  You have no idea what results the research will produce, and whether those results would have anything to do with preventing a future war.

Project Overlord was already partially sucessfull. David communicated with the Geth and controlled them. And this was just by using brute force.
Now, it's all a matter of making sure he doesn't shoot the wrong people.

Not to mention that you don't know that not torturing him will somehow cause or allow a war to break out.

Cerberus knew that the Reapers are coming, Cerberus knew that the Geth work for them. Eventually, a war with the Geth is inevitable.
And the possiblity of the Geth attacking humanity in retaliation for the destruction of their god was very real.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:55 .

[O Tucker]

LuxDragon wrote...

jtav might like this:

Is this offical or fan art?

[Sleepy Buddha]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Checkit out...Miranda will also get a statue alongside Liara (as shown @ Comic-con)

http://bit.ly/qsgQsr
"Kotobukiya's Bushoujo Statues will now feature the ladies of Mass Effect! Watch out for the pre-order announce! http://twitpic.com/5wbzk4"

how do we know miranda's gettign a statue? i can find no mention @ the link or pic.... 

You know what's funny? I found your blog while seaching for info on a Miranda Bishoujo statue.

I was like "Jebel Kro... wait, isn't that...?" lol

Shunya Yama****a's designs are beautiful (if you like bishoujo). I own an Ayanami Rei (EVA) and a Rogue (X-men) both by him. Extremely cute.

Let's hope he gives it his best when designing Bishoujo Miri.


EDIT: What the...? This forum censors a Japanese artist's name. I really dislike political correctness...

Modifié par Sleepy Buddha, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[Vertigo_1]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Checkit out...Miranda will also get a statue alongside Liara (as shown @ Comic-con)

http://bit.ly/qsgQsr
"Kotobukiya's Bushoujo Statues will now feature the ladies of Mass Effect! Watch out for the pre-order announce! http://twitpic.com/5wbzk4"

how do we know miranda's gettign a statue? i can find no mention @ the link or pic.... 

They said the ladies of Mass Effect.
The first is Liara, which all they showed at Comic Con was concept art for the statue.
Besides this is Miranda we are talking about...I'm 99% sure we will see a statue for her...just not now.

[Ieldra]

*confused* Where am I? What the hell is "Bishoujo"? *more confused*

@Vertigo_1
Hmm...the "ladies" of Mass Effect. We won't see a statue of Jack, then:lol:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:04 .

[LuxDragon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I said, no more torture will be involved. Shepard, if you decide to leave David with the project, makes it clear that he eexpects the time of David in that contraption to be over. Whether that happens is another question, but you aren't justifying torture with this decision.

And neither would Miranda by supporting such a decision.

And they'd listen... why? Just because Shepard said so? Is he going to check in every few days to make sure?

You may not be justifying, but embracing ignorance doesn't really mean much either. Whether that happens IS the question. They could easily do it behind his back because maybe stringing him up was the only way to interface with the VI properly or something.

Besides, Archer's failures may mean that he's off the project and someone else will step in and that person may care less about David.

@O Tucker:

No, just fan stuff. If official ME 3 Miranda art gets out, I'd put it in caps.

LIKE THIS!

Modifié par LuxDragon, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:09 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

And why there should be another war with the Geth? (or are you referring to the situation before talking with Legion?).

I'm arguing from the viewpoint and information regarding the Geth Cerberus had when they started Project Overlord.

Ok, understood. I think that something should be done. Though I don't know if the problem justifies the project (since the project is actually extreme). The Geth were dangerous, but they suffered a great loss in the Battle of the Citadel.

MisterJB wrote...

LuxDragon wrote...
Overlord became pointless once Legion revealed there was more than one faction of synthetics.

Pointless? Evil, yes. Pointless? No.
We are still talking about taking control of an army of billions of synthectics.

And why should Cerberus (or humanity) controls the Geth (after the revelation of the "true" Geth)? It will not be done to protect humanity, or to fight the Reapers (since we knew that the Geth will fight the Reapers). It will be made to give to Cerberus (or humanity) a powerful enslaved army. And I don't want to enslave a sentient race (despite they're not organics) that don't want to fight us. I could agree to have the Geth under our command if they were our enemies, but they don't want to fight us. They don't want to conquer organics.

Modifié par hhh89, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
You're presenting a false choice.  You aren't torturing David because you know it will prevent a war with the geth.  You're torturing him because you hope it will prevent war with the geth.  You have no idea what results the research will produce, and whether those results would have anything to do with preventing a future war.

Project Overlord was already partially sucessfull. David communicated with the Geth and controlled them. And this was just by using brute force.
Now, it's all a matter of making sure he doesn't shoot the wrong people.

Not to mention that you don't know that not torturing him will somehow cause or allow a war to break out.

Cerberus knew that the Reapers are coming, Cerberus knew that the Geth work for them. Eventually, a war with the Geth is inevitable.
And the possiblity of the Geth attacking humanity in retaliation for the destruction of their god was very real.

I wouldn't call getting every person in the entire facility killed and then having David attempt to upload himself to the extranet a "partial success".  The only reason you think that is because Gavin survived long enough to tell you what was going on and attempt to restart the project.  Beware any scientist who begins a sentence with "If we can just control it"...  That way lies madness.

[LuxDragon]

^ This (Both posts)

Modifié par LuxDragon, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:11 .

[Sleepy Buddha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*confused* Where am I? What the hell is "Bishoujo"? *more confused*

@Vertigo_1
Hmm...the "ladies" of Mass Effect. We won't see a statue of Jack, then:lol:

Lol, that's mean Ieldra.

Bishoujo is a style of anime design with a focus on cuteness and eroticism.

To get an idea check out this gallery of the artist that designs those statues for Kotobukiya:
shunyama.web.fc2.com/originalgallery.html