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[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*confused* Where am I? What the hell is "Bishoujo"? *more confused*

It means, in Japanese, a beautiful young girl...

Ieldra2 wrote...
@Vertigo_1
Hmm...the "ladies" of Mass Effect. We won't see a statue of Jack, then:lol:

LOL, you're so mean Ieldra

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:21 .

[Ieldra]

Sleepy Buddha wrote...
To get an idea check out this gallery of the artist that designs those statues for Kotobukiya:
shunyama.web.fc2.com/originalgallery.html

Hmm. Nice... *distracted*....yes, very nice.

But Miranda in that style.....I don't know. Only if they don't change her face into one of these teenage cuties'.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:22 .

[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm. Nice... *distracted*....yes, very nice.

But Miranda in that style.....I don't know. Only if they don't change her face into one of these teenage cuties'.

Have you seen the Liara concept for the statue?

[Ieldra]

Not something I'd buy, not even of Miranda. But I defer my judgment about its artistic merit until I see the Miranda version.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Ok, understood. I think that something should be done. Though I don't know if the problem justifies the project (since the project is actually extreme). The Geth were dangerous, but they suffered a great loss in the Battle of the Citadel.

The Geth are not organic. They don't require decades to replenish their numbers. Cerberus couldn't have known how long it would take until they were ready for another attack.

It will not be done to protect humanity, or to fight the Reapers (since we knew that the Geth will fight the Reapers).

Actually, it would. The Reapers are not the only threat to humanity and having the Geth under out control would turns the Human race into the top dog in the Galaxy.
 

It will be made to give to Cerberus (or humanity) a powerful enslaved army. And I don't want to enslave a sentient race (despite they're not organics) that don't want to fight us. I could agree to have the Geth under our command if they were our enemies, but they don't want to fight us. They don't want to conquer organics.

Even so, I did not argue wether or not humanity should seek to control the Geth. I flat out called it an evil pursuit.
I was simply saying that the reveleation that there are different factions of Geth does not make Project Overlord pointless.

TheMarshal wrote...
I wouldn't call getting every person in the entire facility killed and then having David attempt to upload himself to the extranet a "partial success". 

What would you call it then?
The objectives of Project Overlord are to comunicate and control the Geth. David Archer communicated with them and bended them to his will. The only problem was that he went insane.
The only reason those people died was because Gavin Archer is a bloody idiot who directly connected his autistic brother to the hive mind of the Geth and his reasoning was "Let's see what happens. He migth actually enjoy it"
He should have taken the necessary security measures before attempting such a thing. Inform TIM about what he was planning on doing, "ask" the Quarians for some insigth on the Geth, have a squad of Cerberus commandos ready in case something bad happens.

Beware any scientist who begins a sentence with "If we can just control it"...  That way lies madness.

That way lies progress.

[naledgeborn]

Project Overlord was the right idea but very bad in execution. Another case of Renegade = Stupid. It was a gamble but one where risk assessment tells me that the rewards would have been worth the risk. The fact that G. Archer didn't take steps to mitigate the risks ensured that the experiment could have ended in disaster, which it did. If people can't get past their moral fiber long enough to at least recognize the potential behind Project Overlord then I'll just have to chalk another one up to idealistic naiveté.

And as much as some people in this thread fight to put Miranda on a moral pedestal they're futilely punching at a knife's pointy end. She would NOT shut Overlord down without a second thought. And like Ieldra said if this is before 'A House Divided' I have no doubt that David would still be with Cerberus, albeit in a more safeguarded environment.
I'm done derailing the thread.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:17 .

[Caihn]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Checkit out...Miranda will also get a statue alongside Liara (as shown @ Comic-con)

http://bit.ly/qsgQsr
"Kotobukiya's Bushoujo Statues will now feature the ladies of Mass Effect! Watch out for the pre-order announce! http://twitpic.com/5wbzk4"

how do we know miranda's gettign a statue? i can find no mention @ the link or pic.... 

They said the ladies of Mass Effect.
The first is Liara, which all they showed at Comic Con was concept art for the statue.
Besides this is Miranda we are talking about...I'm 99% sure we will see a statue for her...just not now.

I also hope there will be a Miranda one.

I'm disappointed this one will never be on sale :

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
I'm disappointed this one will never be on sale :

That's quite good. Why won't they produce it?

[jtav]

Basically, BW fired the company due to massive delays.

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
I wouldn't call getting every person in the entire facility killed and then having David attempt to upload himself to the extranet a "partial success". 

What would you call it then?
The objectives of Project Overlord are to comunicate and control the Geth. David Archer communicated with them and bended them to his will. The only problem was that he went insane.
The only reason those people died was because Gavin Archer is a bloody idiot who directly connected his autistic brother to the hive mind of the Geth and his reasoning was "Let's see what happens. He migth actually enjoy it"
He should have taken the necessary security measures before attempting such a thing. Inform TIM about what he was planning on doing, "ask" the Quarians for some insigth on the Geth, have a squad of Cerberus commandos ready in case something bad happens.

Beware any scientist who begins a sentence with "If we can just control it"...  That way lies madness.

That way lies progress.

Everything's a success right up to the point at which it fails.  And this project failed.  Spectacularly.

My point, though, is that the torture wasn't what brought about the small gains this project may have made.  The discovery of David's ability to 'speak' to the geth was the one and only positive that came out of the project, and it happened on accident.  The moment 'progress' was attempted - by the people who thought "if we can just control it" - was when things when to ****.

[MisterJB]

TheMarshal wrote...
Everything's a success right up to the point at which it fails.  And this project failed.  Spectacularly.

The project only fails if Shepard sneds David to the Grissom academy. Otherwise, there was a setback but the project was already partially sucecssfull and it will continue.

My point, though, is that the torture wasn't what brought about the small gains this project may have made.  The discovery of David's ability to 'speak' to the geth was the one and only positive that came out of the project, and it happened on accident.  The moment 'progress' was attempted - by the people who thought "if we can just control it" - was when things when to ****.

True, it was badly executed. I blame TIM for putting so much pressure into getting results.
However, David's ability to speak to the Geth was not the only positive. Cerberus now knows that it's possible for a human mind to control the Geth. Now it's all a matter of controlling said human mind.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Ok, understood. I think that something should be done. Though I don't know if the problem justifies the project (since the project is actually extreme). The Geth were dangerous, but they suffered a great loss in the Battle of the Citadel.

The Geth are not organic. They don't require decades to replenish their numbers. Cerberus couldn't have known how long it would take until they were ready for another attack.

It will not be done to protect humanity, or to fight the Reapers (since we knew that the Geth will fight the Reapers).

Actually, it would. The Reapers are not the only threat to humanity and having the Geth under out control would turns the Human race into the top dog in the Galaxy.
 

Putting aside the various things that could be different in ME2 from what we did in ME, there isn't an actual threats for humanity. The Batarians have an inferior military power in comparison of humanity, and the Council races have no reason to fight us (again, this could be different based on ME, but I'm talking in general). The relationship with the three major races are, if not good, acceptable.
And we have a seat in the Council. Unless we'll do something terrible (like, for example, the creation of an IA) why should the Council races would pose a threat for humanity?
I agree that having a Geth army will put humanity on top. Still, there are other method to do so, that (for me) are better than the enslavment of an entire race.

[LuxDragon]

Controlling human minds... Yeah, that sounds nice. [/sarcasm]

Modifié par LuxDragon, 27 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .

[Ieldra]

I think the Overlord debate has gone on long enough. Perhaps we can go from the debate about what's the best decision there to how Miranda would think of it?

[Sleepy Buddha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
I'm disappointed this one will never be on sale :

That's quite good. Why won't they produce it?

jtav wrote...

Basically, BW fired the company due to massive delays.

Well, that's disapointing... It looked really good for an action figure.

Still, let's wait and see what Koto can do.

As far as Miranda's bishoujo statue is concerned, I guess it will be a serious challenge to Shunya's skills due to her unique facial structure.

[Dr. Doctor]

From what I've seen, Cerberus researchers both in Overlord and in ME2 in general prefer to take drastic measures right off the bat rather than considering things such as radical medical experimentation on children and torture only as a last resort.

Miranda is willing to take drastic measures (such as the control chip) but she's not willing to throw away lives carelessly (such as her response to the crew being taken by the Collectors) She's not exactly a moral paragon, but she's got more restraint than Archer and the researchers at Pragia.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
The Batarians have an inferior military power in comparison of humanity,

And yet, people like Balak still exist. If we had a small fleet of Geth stationed above every important human settlement, BDTS wouldn't have gone very far.

Also, you are forgetting slavers and pirates that attack our setllements in the Traverse and Termynus. If we had a bigger fleet, we could protect them and properly expand the human race.

and the Council races have no reason to fight us.The relationship with the three major races are, if not good, acceptable.
And we have a seat in the Council. Unless we'll do something terrible (like, for example, the creation of an IA) why should the Council races would pose a threat for humanity?

In less that thirty years, humanity gained a seat on the Council. You can claim that it was due to fortuitous cirscunstances but the truth is that the humanity expands quickly.
And this is not going to stop. There is a war coming between humanity and the other races. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Humanity should be prepared.

LuxDragon wrote...

Controlling human minds... Yeah, that sounds nice. [/sarcasm]

One human mind vs thousands of humans lives.

[The Elder King]

I think that if Overlord is being done after Legion's LM she would agree to send David to the Grissom Academy. Before, I don't know. she is contrary to experiment that went too far (like Pragia, and the problem with Overlord was casues by going too far) or that was done on sentient beings (she said that Cerberus shut down the Rachnii project after discovering that they were sentient beings, and she seemed to agree), but on the other hand the project could prevent that the Geth will fight again against humans (since she don't know nothing about the Geth at this point).

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Before, I don't know. she is contrary to experiment that went too far (like Pragia, and the problem with Overlord was casues by going too far) or that was done on sentient beings (she said that Cerberus shut down the Rachnii project after discovering that they were sentient beings, and she seemed to agree),

I also think that we should take into consideration that in the Rachni case, we are talking about enslaving an entire race. In David's case, it's just one human being.

[TheMarshal]

All these talks about sacrifices being made "for the greater good" are fun to think about and all, but it's when the sacrifices are always being made by others and never yourself when you lose your humanity and become a monster. I think the thing which sets Miranda apart from TIM and the (apparent) majority of Cerberus is that she isn't willing to subject others to something that she wouldn't be willing to have done to herself.

In Overlord, I imagine that she'd keep David until it was determined that he was no longer necessary to the project.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
From what I've seen, Cerberus researchers both in Overlord and in ME2 in general prefer to take drastic measures right off the bat rather than considering things such as radical medical experimentation on children and torture only as a last resort.

Yes, and that's what I find unbelievable. Even an unscrupulous scientist wouldn't throw away human lives carelessly. For instance, the people at Pragia would test their new substances on rats before running experiments on children with a high risk of lethality. The way Cerberus scientists are portrayed in the games it completely insane.  

Miranda is willing to take drastic measures (such as the control chip) but she's not willing to throw away lives carelessly (such as her response to the crew being taken by the Collectors) She's not exactly a moral paragon, but she's got more restraint than Archer and the researchers at Pragia.

I think had she run Overlord, David would still be a "well cared-for lab rat" but there would've been no torture or other means of brute-force research.

BTW, I think Miranda's line after the abduction of the crew depends on whether or not your team is full. If you have a full team (and possibly only if their loyalty missions are all done), she says there's no reason to wait. Otherwise she recommends to continue building the team. Jacob's always the one recommending fast action.

[Ieldra]

TheMarshal wrote...
All these talks about sacrifices being made "for the greater good" are fun to think about and all, but it's when the sacrifices are always being made by others and never yourself when you lose your humanity and become a monster. I think the thing which sets Miranda apart from TIM and the (apparent) majority of Cerberus is that she isn't willing to subject others to something that she wouldn't be willing to have done to herself.

I think Miranda is absolutely capable of torturing a captive for information. She'd use "smart" methods like truth drugs or suchlike in preference, but if they aren't availabe she'd resort to the cruder methods.

[TheMarshal]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think Miranda is absolutely capable of torturing a captive for information. She'd use "smart" methods like truth drugs or suchlike in preference, but if they aren't availabe she'd resort to the cruder methods.

I'd argue that truth drugs and the like aren't torture, but otherwise I agree with you.  It would definitely be a 'last resort' for her, though.

[LuxDragon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think the Overlord debate has gone on long enough. Perhaps we can go from the debate about what's the best decision there to how Miranda would think of it?

I would, but then I'd be spoiling my fic.

However, I'd like to point out that Miranda is intelligent and she knows it. She'd prefer elegance and wit to get results, not brute force. Torture and the like is beneath her.

I'm with Marshall: Drugs work, but that's something for last result.

Modifié par LuxDragon, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:03 .

[Ieldra]

LuxDragon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think the Overlord debate has gone on long enough. Perhaps we can go from the debate about what's the best decision there to how Miranda would think of it?

I would, but then I'd be spoiling my fic.

However, I'd like to point out that Miranda is intelligent and she knows it. She'd prefer elegance and wit to get results, not brute force. Torture and the like is beneath her.

I'm with Marshall: Drugs work, but that's something for last result.

Note that Marshall agreed with me that the cruder methods would be a last resort. But I say Miranda is above all things results-oriented - I agree that she prefers to use more subtle methods to get them, but if she thinks it's important enough, and no other means are available, then yes, she is capable of torture. I don't think she'd hook up David to that contraption (more elegant methods are available), but kneecapping a captive - definitely. I recommend rereading this flashback in "Degrees of Inheritance". I think Miranda is definitely in character there. You see her limits, but also what she's capable of. Note that she changes somewhat in the story - but only after the events in ME2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .