82210 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
The Reapers don't get to exist. I'm not a religious man, but the Reapers are plain evil. They are an abhorrent perversion of all life, organic and synthetic, that must be cleansed.

Spoken like a true inquisitor.

Would you prefer they live? The Reapers seek only to destroy and rebuild their own. For our own survival, they must be wiped out. The species they 'represent' don't exist anymore. They're just Reapers now. Seeking to understand is incredibly noble and incredibly lofty goal. But you just can't understand everything. The Reapers are one of those things. If they meant for us to understand them, they would've told us in one of their many doom and gloom speeches. (Godwin here) The ****'s needed to be cleansed. And though you could understand their motives because they were human just like us, the way they thought and acted was incompatible with everyone else and this would have led to conflict every time, so they needed to be eradicated.

The Reapers, even if you could understand them are the same. They seek only to destroy. For the sake of our own survival, we must do the same to them. They are nothing but a mockery and perversion of all life as I said before. There's nothing from them worth learning or keeping. And there's certainly nothing left of the species used to create them. If any of the species used to create a Reaper still existed, you can bet they'd want to wipe that Reaper out.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[hot_heart]

Oh dear, here we go again...

[fiendishchicken]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh dear, here we go again...

I'm out of line here, I'll simmer down.








On another note, at least I keep things interesting.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:21 .

[hot_heart]

Nah, it's OK. I just think it's fruitless because you're not going to change people's minds now. Everyone can interpret the endings to how they see fit, and that's about the best we can all do really.

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
The Reapers don't get to exist. I'm not a religious man, but the Reapers are plain evil. They are an abhorrent perversion of all life, organic and synthetic, that must be cleansed.

Spoken like a true inquisitor.

C'mon, that is such an absurd comparison to make, even for the internet.  There is such a difference between torturing people for their religious beliefs and judging that a species that has killed TRILLIONS (probably more) is evil.

You like synthesis, and disagree with their position, fine.  But don't throw around words that have acutal meanings.  It just shows how lazy you are.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

It's very easy to imagine him coming back. i mean, it's the sort of pseud-messianic death heroes survive all the time. But even if it weren't, I choose the beam freely. There are things that matter more than romance.

I accept that Sci-fi always opens the possibility for characters coming back from the dead as evidenced by the Lazarus project. However to me at least Synthesis beam dispersal seems pretty final.

[fiendishchicken]

 On a completely different note, Today is Yvonne's 30th birthday. Is it just me or does 30 seem old? That and it feels like Yvonne is has been around a lot longer than 5 years here in the U.S. It seems odd that she's done an entire 5 season show and several movies before she even turned 30.
Anyway happy birthday Yvonne! 

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
The Reapers don't get to exist. I'm not a religious man, but the Reapers are plain evil. They are an abhorrent perversion of all life, organic and synthetic, that must be cleansed.

Spoken like a true inquisitor.

C'mon, that is such an absurd comparison to make, even for the internet.  There is such a difference between torturing people for their religious beliefs and judging that a species that has killed TRILLIONS (probably more) is evil.

You like synthesis, and disagree with their position, fine.  But don't throw around words that have acutal meanings.  It just shows how lazy you are.

It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Edit:
Here's how I'd phrase my take on it: the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations because they were made for doing that, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive, and it's in our nature to want to survive. Good or evil does not come into it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:44 .

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, I can make a counterclaim.

While I understand the idea behind your point, I cannot agree.  I've seen how the reapers "harvest" civilizations.  Every time I play ME2, I get legion last so that they don't "harvest" Kelly Chambers.  And even then, I get to watch them "harvest" poor Lilith.  And they've done this to countless trillions for millions of years.  TRILLIONS.  Probably more. 

Whatever their intentions might be, they are evil and they have to go.

[Ieldra]

I can understand the opinion "they have to go". It's the most straightforward way to survival. I cannot understand the opinion "they are evil". They are non-human, they are of a species with a different value hierarchy, and to blithely assume that our yardstick of good and evil must apply to everything in the same way is.....racist (paraphrasing Legion in ME2, he actually says this is racist).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[krukow]

...I don't see how applying the basics of morality to every species equally is "racist".

Someone's values may be different, but that doesn't mean they therefore transcend morality. After all, if someone came from a culture where beating your wife was acceptable, I wouldn't approve of them doing it.

I feel our disagreement may stem from our views of morality, with me seeing certain things as objective and universal, and you seeing it more subjective. And that's fine, that's why we both get to do our own endings.

It's just that when you see someone on here refer to them as evil, it's not that we're racist, it's that we believe in a system of morality that even the reapers must answer to. And genocide is one of those evil things.


(also, killing the reapers isn't the same. There are no women and children reapers. 100% of them are combatants. If we killed non-combatant reapers, it would be different.)

[jtav]

I'll grant what the Catalyst is doing is evil--unlike Ieldra, I believe in a universal morality. I'm also a pacifist who sees other means to contain the threat as well as evidence that the Reapers aren't in full control of their actions. I don't find Synthesis morally problematic, and I want the results. Into the beam Shep goes.

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
The Reapers don't get to exist. I'm not a religious man, but the Reapers are plain evil. They are an abhorrent perversion of all life, organic and synthetic, that must be cleansed.

Spoken like a true inquisitor.

C'mon, that is such an absurd comparison to make, even for the internet.  There is such a difference between torturing people for their religious beliefs and judging that a species that has killed TRILLIONS (probably more) is evil.

You like synthesis, and disagree with their position, fine.  But don't throw around words that have acutal meanings.  It just shows how lazy you are.

It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Perhaps evil is the wrong word. But their actions of killing every living thing that fits their criterion leaves little room for interpretation. From what can be seen of the Reapers, I don't care about their nature - they sure as hell don't care about mine - and all I see is giant space cthulu bots that are hellbent on wiping out everything I've ever known and loved. All I want to see is dead Reapers. They don't deserve anything less.

And it's *not* natural. They take beings of free will against their will (or just kill them outright for being 'chaos'), then process them into a genetic paste used to create a new Reaper. That is a violation of living beings for their own benefit. And then to be told that it somehow stops a tech singularity conflict? Do we really need to look further than all that to know the Reapers are pretty much as close to evil as it gets? Some things are just not meant to exist. And the Reapers are one of those.

The Reapers are plainly an abomination. The universe is not inherently good or evil, but it will be a much better place with them gone forever.

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can understand the opinion "they have to go". It's the most straightforward way to survival. I cannot understand the opinion "they are evil". They are non-human, they are of a species with a different value hierarchy, and to blithely assume that our yardstick of good and evil must apply to everything in the same way is.....racist (paraphrasing Legion in ME2, he actually says this is racist).

The Reapers take living, intelligent beings of free will and choice and force them against their will into either a) becoming mindless slaves that are twisted to the Reapers will become mindless slaves that are grotesquly altered to serve as fodder troops, or c) be processed and harvested like cattle or pigs in a slaughterhouse to make a new Reaper, or lastly d) kill them outright, wipe them out, vaporize them, tear them to shreds, whatever. The Reapers are committing genocide. 

That's Evil, plain and simple. 

And I'm saying this as an atheist.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:11 .

[Stalker]

.

[krukow]

Happy Birthday Yvonne!!

...so not excited about her getting "dextered". Oh well...

AND 30 ISN'T OLD!

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

Happy Birthday Yvonne!!

...so not excited about her getting "dextered". Oh well...

AND 30 ISN'T OLD!

maybe not... but now that I think about it she's been here in the US since 2007, living here since I believe July of that year.

And I'm 21. turning 30 scares me. turning 20 scared me. 

30 is the age where everyone starts to settle down and get a career established in permanence. 

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

Happy Birthday Yvonne!!

...so not excited about her getting "dextered". Oh well...

AND 30 ISN'T OLD!

maybe not... but now that I think about it she's been here in the US since 2007, living here since I believe July of that year.

And I'm 21. turning 30 scares me. turning 20 scared me. 

30 is the age where everyone starts to settle down and get a career established in permanence. 

I can tell you that's only semi-true.  Some of my friends are still traveling and refusing to grow up.  How I envy them...

[Sifr]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can understand the opinion "they have to go". It's the most straightforward way to survival. I cannot understand the opinion "they are evil". They are non-human, they are of a species with a different value hierarchy, and to blithely assume that our yardstick of good and evil must apply to everything in the same way is.....racist (paraphrasing Legion in ME2, he actually says this is racist).

The Reapers take living, intelligent beings of free will and choice and force them against their will into either a) becoming mindless slaves that are twisted to the Reapers will become mindless slaves that are grotesquly altered to serve as fodder troops, or c) be processed and harvested like cattle or pigs in a slaughterhouse to make a new Reaper, or lastly d) kill them outright, wipe them out, vaporize them, tear them to shreds, whatever. The Reapers are committing genocide. 

That's Evil, plain and simple. 

And I'm saying this as an atheist.

I'd like to throw into this discussion Miranda's "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" comment from the second game. She recognised that using the Collector base for their own advantage was clearly the wrong thing to do, as it seemed to justify everything the Collectors, and therefore the Reapers did.

Even if they're on our side now, keeping the Reapers alive seems wrong somehow, particularly Synthesis post-EC where it's explicitly said by the Catalyst that he wanted Synthesis all along.

But anyhow... back to Miranda discussion.

Yvonne's only 30?

[hot_heart]

Sifr1449 wrote...
Yvonne's only 30?

Never tell a woman you think she's older than she really is.

[fiendishchicken]

hot_heart wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
Yvonne's only 30?

Never tell a woman you think she's older than she really is.

I have a notorious habit of that....

I'm sure she's just as young at heart as she was when she first moved to the US.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Edit:
Here's how I'd phrase my take on it: the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations because they were made for doing that, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive, and it's in our nature to want to survive. Good or evil does not come into it.

Agreed, particularly with the underlined. The arrogance of trying to impose human standards on what is obviously vastly beyond us is staggering.

[Sifr]

hot_heart wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
Yvonne's only 30?

Never tell a woman you think she's older than she really is.

It's clearly an affliction of stupidity that afflicts us men, which even Shepard isn't exempt from! Ever notice how many times in conversation he mentions that Samara is over 1000...?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:07 .

[jtav]

And I'd say Miranda was wrong to say using the Collector tech per se was wrong (as opposed to the entirely foreseeable consequence of giving it to TIM). I don't think I agree with a shred of advice Miranda gives actually.

[krukow]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Edit:
Here's how I'd phrase my take on it: the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations because they were made for doing that, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive, and it's in our nature to want to survive. Good or evil does not come into it.

Agreed, particularly with the underlined. The arrogance of trying to impose human standards on what is obviously vastly beyond us is staggering.

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?