82210 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Edit:
Here's how I'd phrase my take on it: the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations because they were made for doing that, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive, and it's in our nature to want to survive. Good or evil does not come into it.

Agreed, particularly with the underlined. The arrogance of trying to impose human standards on what is obviously vastly beyond us is staggering.

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

Exactly. this. 

The Reapers need to be sent back to whatever black hole they crawled out of.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...
Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

Yes.

We have it because we are a co-operative species who depend on each other for survival. It is likely any other intelligent species with the same characteristic would have the same standard. Our morality is rooted in our biology and in our culture. Species organized in a different way may have different standards.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

Yes.

We have it because we are a co-operative species who depend on each other for survival. It is likely any other intelligent species with the same characteristic would have the same standard. Our morality is rooted in our biology and in our culture.

That is stupid. I'm just going to up and say it. You are justifying murder. Even if its not human. That is ****ing retarded.

[Taboo]

^ It's far more complicated than right or wrong. Things are black and white until they involve you. Once it involves you, things get REALLY complicated sometimes.

The endings do not appeal to emotion, they appeal to intellect. It's no longer cut and dry. You have to think about it.

[jtav]

I must disagree with Ieldra in the strongest possible terms. There are acts--murder, rape, and various others--that are wrong always and everywhere. I insist upon holding the Reapers to the same standard I would any other form of life.

And if I sound watery in my condemnation, it's because I'd like to still be on speaking terms later.

[CrutchCricket]

krukow wrote...

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

First off look up what murder means. I'll wait.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you're simply referring to "killing", then guess what? You yourself have "murdered" trillions upon trillons... of bacteria.

Yes, that's right, each time you get an infection (and of course that happens a lot even if you display no visible symptoms) your immune system identifies the foreign bodies in your system and proceeds to murder the **** out of them. Chances are you're commiting bacterial genocide right now. You monster.

Problem?

I'll also leave you with another interesting little tidbit. A creature that can't be killed would not have a concept of killing in the first place.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ It's far more complicated than right or wrong. Things are black and white until they involve you. Once it involves you, things get REALLY complicated sometimes.

The endings do not appeal to emotion, they appeal to intellect. It's no longer cut and dry. You have to think about it.

I really have to control myself here from going on a rant against this guy. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:38 .

[Sifr]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's more the mindset. I have a particular dislike for any opinion that something must be "cleansed". Also, I am unwilling to call something evil unless I know enough about it to make an informed decision. "The nature of a person can be difficult to determine by actions alone" (Thane in ME2). And lastly, I'm getting more and more allergic to this *obsession* to judge everything by standards that do not apply, and to make judgments based on normative notions of what is natural. The Reapers harvest advanced civilizations, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive. Those are the facts. And that's actually the end of what we can say for certain. For any claim that goes further, someone can make a counterclaim.

Edit:
Here's how I'd phrase my take on it: the Reapers harvest advanced civilizations because they were made for doing that, and we are trying to stop them because we want to survive, and it's in our nature to want to survive. Good or evil does not come into it.

Agreed, particularly with the underlined. The arrogance of trying to impose human standards on what is obviously vastly beyond us is staggering.

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

Exactly. this. 

The Reapers need to be sent back to whatever black hole they crawled out of.

Also, and I hate to bog down this wonderful thread with out of topic discussion, you could make the same argument about the Batarians and how dare we impose our belief that "Slavery is Wrong!" on them, despite the fact that they willingly attack Human colonies and commit atrocities to the people there... It can't all be propoganda, there was a reason why Zabaleta turned to drinking after seeing what happened on Mindoir.

Back to Miranda and her wonderful, wonderful gams...

(Ok, when did this become a 1930's pulp detective story?)

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

Yes.

We have it because we are a co-operative species who depend on each other for survival. It is likely any other intelligent species with the same characteristic would have the same standard. Our morality is rooted in our biology and in our culture. Species organized in a different way may have different standards.

And that gets back to what I said earlier.  I believe in an objective standard of morality.  I think certain things are evil, even if society disagrees.  I think slaverly was immoral, even when it was legalized by the majority.

You see morality as subjective.  That morals are created and changable, and thus cannot be imposed on others unless they accept it.

And that's fine, this isn't flame bait.  We disagree and are both entitled to our choice in the ending of ME3.

But really, that's going to be the difference between you and me.  I believe in true right and wrong, you do not.  I'm fighting the reapers because I believe what they do is evil, you're fighting them because you want humanity/the galaxy to survive.

In fairness, I also want to survive.

[Taboo]

Certain things are maintained subconsciously to maintain order in society.

I take my username from Taboos, something that form a structure in society. Sometimes they actually have benefits.

Incest for example, is an almost universal taboo. But it actually prevents certain things from happening, like genetic disorders. That's a good thing.

I think that certain things need to be taken into account in the same manner. Rape is wrong. Murder is wrong. Those limitations keep society together. Without them, we'd fall apart.

[Taboo]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ It's far more complicated than right or wrong. Things are black and white until they involve you. Once it involves you, things get REALLY complicated sometimes.

The endings do not appeal to emotion, they appeal to intellect. It's no longer cut and dry. You have to think about it.

I really have to control myself here from going on a rant against this guy. 

And it takes ALL the power in the world to not tell Ieldra about the unpleasent aesthetics in all of the endings.It's very hard to remain concentrated when horrors are being commited.

I for one am not a fan of how Israel treats Palestine and vice versa, but I can't really convince people otherwise.

There are multiple ways of solving problems.

[fiendishchicken]

CrutchCricket wrote...

krukow wrote...

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

First off look up what murder means. I'll wait.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you're simply referring to "killing", then guess what? You yourself have "murdered" trillions upon trillons... of bacteria.

Yes, that's right, each time you get an infection (and of course that happens a lot even if you display no visible symptoms) your immune system identifies the foreign bodies in your system and proceeds to murder the **** out of them. Chances are you're commiting bacterial genocide right now. You monster.

Problem?

I'll also leave you with another interesting little tidbit. A creature that can't be killed would not have a concept of killing in the first place.

Wow... just... wow. 

I don't know how to respond to this level of... stolid, asinine, utterly laughable argument.

[Babi_Siha]

It doesn't matter if for the Reapers they're not committing murder, that they're doing what they've been told. What matters is to the people that have been killed and harvested, meaning the entire galaxy. Regardless if the Reapers are evil or not in their vision, it's a war and they are the enemies that need to be put down. A terrorist is still a terrorist even if he does those things out of religious beliefs.

There are so many things that could go wrong with synthesis and control. The Leviathan is a proof of this, in theory a Reaper can rebel at any time and it only takes one to bring so much death and destruction. The way I see it, even if destroy became the lamest ending with the EC, it's still the only way to ensure the cycle will end once and for all.

[CrutchCricket]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Wow... just... wow. 

I don't know how to respond to this level of... stolid, asinine, utterly laughable argument.

Dismissive butthurt is still a response. And much easier than a logical counter.

But I do recognize deep beliefs and deep emotional attachment to those beliefs when I see them. This isn't the place to attack either. I'm willing to drop it if everyone else is.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ It's far more complicated than right or wrong. Things are black and white until they involve you. Once it involves you, things get REALLY complicated sometimes.

The endings do not appeal to emotion, they appeal to intellect. It's no longer cut and dry. You have to think about it.

I really have to control myself here from going on a rant against this guy. 

And it takes ALL the power in the world to not tell Ieldra about the unpleasent aesthetics in all of the endings.It's very hard to remain concentrated when horrors are being commited.

I for one am not a fan of how Israel treats Palestine and vice versa, but I can't really convince people otherwise.

There are multiple ways of solving problems.

I've seen firsthand what the Taliban do to women who simply talk in the streets. It's part of their culture (the Taliban's). That does not make it right. It is utterly reprehensible and disgusting. And the foul creatures who think they are doing right by their terribly misguided perversion of Islam ought to be hunted down and executed. I'm almost proud to say I have contributed to many of their deaths.

I'm not decrying Islam to be clear. I am an atheist.

But then this guy would say something like, "It's a cultural difference. And you're wrong to think that this is bad." 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[enayasoul]

CrutchCricket wrote...

krukow wrote...

It's not like I'm criticizing their system of government or minimum wage scale.  Murder is murder is murder, and they've murdered TRILLIONS.  Even if you omit the "harvested" people, I watched the begining of ME3.  They show up and shoot and kill staggering amounts of people.  And they've done this many, many times for millions of years.

Are you all really trying to suggest that "murder is wrong" is a human standard?

First off look up what murder means. I'll wait.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you're simply referring to "killing", then guess what? You yourself have "murdered" trillions upon trillons... of bacteria.

Yes, that's right, each time you get an infection (and of course that happens a lot even if you display no visible symptoms) your immune system identifies the foreign bodies in your system and proceeds to murder the **** out of them. Chances are you're commiting bacterial genocide right now. You monster.

Problem?

I'll also leave you with another interesting little tidbit. A creature that can't be killed would not have a concept of killing in the first place.

This is just...  wow. Really?  You are comparing killing bacteria as murder?  REALLY?  Maybe the Reapers are a VIRUS that needs to be killed, destroyed, whatever.  

If I recall correctly the protheans AI mentioned they already tried control... it didn't work...  Synthesis didn't work.  I still firmly believe that those two options are what the reapers wanted to keep the cycle going. Once your dead your dead. 

*I* really do not believe Shepard can control the reapers.  He is strong willed but I cannot fathom wanting to keep the Reapers around no matter what they have to give us.  They indoctrinate and make you their slaves. No if ands or butts about it.  That is clearly evident.

The reapers DO NOT care about letting you live. They will and have killed thousands of species all in the name of "perserving the best" 

The whole ending is just nonsense as is fighting about the endings in this thread. 

We should be talking more about Miranda not this...

[Taboo]

And I've seen some pretty unscrupulous things in Greece. I have friends fighting there, in the streets. Sometimes getting hurt doing so. I would love nothing more than to do something about it but I can't. I would also have strong words for Angela Merkel.

Your way of solving the issue is entirely valid. It works. The Taliban are misguided, and the root of the issue lies with misinformation.

Much like the Batarians.

Roger Waters spoke of this is Amused to Death. The root of the problem is one person believing they know what God (Allah) wants.

And what God wants, God gets.

Unfortunately.

[Sifr]

Babi_Siha wrote...

It doesn't matter if for the Reapers they're not committing murder, that they're doing what they've been told. What matters is to the people that have been killed and harvested, meaning the entire galaxy. Regardless if the Reapers are evil or not in their vision, it's a war and they are the enemies that need to be put down. A terrorist is still a terrorist even if he does those things out of religious beliefs.

There are so many things that could go wrong with synthesis and control. The Leviathan is a proof of this, in theory a Reaper can rebel at any time and it only takes one to bring so much death and destruction. The way I see it, even if destroy became the lamest ending with the EC, it's still the only way to ensure the cycle will end once and for all.

While I totally agree with you, I just had a horrible thought.

How many of those things also apply to Shepard?

In essence, Shepard is an entity that was part of an organisation that pledged to do nothing, but went rogue in order to wreak havoc and bring death and destruction to an enemy that they felt needed to be put down. We can see that at the end of the first game, where despite the Council claiming that peace has been restored, Shepard was steadfast in their belief the Reapers were coming, effectively declared war against them, then turned their back to get to work.

Huh...

Modifié par Sifr1449, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:53 .

[krukow]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

It doesn't matter if for the Reapers they're not committing murder, that they're doing what they've been told. What matters is to the people that have been killed and harvested, meaning the entire galaxy. Regardless if the Reapers are evil or not in their vision, it's a war and they are the enemies that need to be put down. A terrorist is still a terrorist even if he does those things out of religious beliefs.

There are so many things that could go wrong with synthesis and control. The Leviathan is a proof of this, in theory a Reaper can rebel at any time and it only takes one to bring so much death and destruction. The way I see it, even if destroy became the lamest ending with the EC, it's still the only way to ensure the cycle will end once and for all.

While I totally agree with you, I just had a horrible thought.

How many of those things also apply to Shepard?

In essence, Shepard is an entity that was part of an organisation that pledged to do nothing, but went rogue in order to wreak havoc and bring death and destruction to an enemy that if felt needed to be put down. We can see that at the end of the first game, where despite the Council claiming that peace has been restored, Shepard was steadfast in their belief the Reapers were coming, effectively declared war against them, then turned their back to get to work.

Huh...

SIGH...
1.  The reapers were coming.
2.  Sovereign already said they were going to wipe out the galaxy.  We exist because they allow it, we will end because they demand it.  War were already declared yo.
3.  Gee, maybe if everyone else had joined Shepard in getting to work, we wouldn't have had the whole catalyst thing, eh?

I mean, you're literally trying to paint the dismissive council in a good light?

[CrutchCricket]

enayasoul wrote...


This is just...  wow. Really?  You are comparing killing bacteria as murder?  REALLY?  Maybe the Reapers are a VIRUS that needs to be killed, destroyed, whatever.  

Why not? We (people I mean) really should stop thinking we're the center of the universe. We really as inconsequential as bacteria in the grand scheme of things. We only matter to ourselves.
I realize this self-importance is "emotional" thinking not logical thinking and can't really be argued away but... I still find it fascinating.

If I recall correctly the protheans AI mentioned they already tried control... it didn't work...  Synthesis didn't work.  I still firmly believe that those two options are what the reapers wanted to keep the cycle going. Once your dead your dead. 

*I* really do not believe Shepard can control the reapers.  He is strong willed but I cannot fathom wanting to keep the Reapers around no matter what they have to give us.  They indoctrinate and make you their slaves. No if ands or butts about it.  That is clearly evident.

The reapers DO NOT care about letting you live. They will and have killed thousands of species all in the name of "perserving the best" 

They tried sans Crucible. And that made all the difference. I will say nothing about synthesis but Control works because you are using the system that's already in place. You're not hacking the Reapers (well I believe the Crucible is, but that's another discussion). If you believe the holokid controlled the Reapers, then there's no reason why Shepard wouldn't if he takes its place. It's the difference between hacking into the CIA and being given access to their computers. Nothing says you couldn't use their computers if you were given access.

We should be talking more about Miranda not this...

This I agree with;)

[krukow]

no more arguing morality with first year college students. Miranda haiku time!

biotics crush mechs
drill you from 100 yards
Miranda Lawson

[Taboo]

We should really get back on topic...



Who's with me?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:00 .

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

We should really get back on topic...



Who's with me?

[CrutchCricket]

krukow wrote...

no more arguing morality with first year college students.

lol

Keep your passive agressive jabs to yourself. Particularly the misinformed ones.

Nice haiku though.

[Taboo]

Actually the discussion about role playing night was more amusing than this. I got a good hearty chuckle over that.

Until krukow reminded me that my Shepard couldn't cook.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .