82210 réponses à ce sujet

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@hot_heart:
I just read the three last chapters of your story, which I had forgotten to follow for a while. Very nice. I wish you had not followed the in-game dialogue quite so closely, but otherwise I liked it.

Oh, thank you. Unfortunately, yeah, I set myself the task of adhering to the existing scenes in some form. Though you may notice I altered some of the control chip dialogue at the start, much in the same way I cut Miranda's bit about her father's legacy during the prior conversation with Shepard. It's just old information we don't need.

I know it's not to everyone's liking, but I didn't want to deviate too much, and I kinda like the challenge. Adding in that message from Shepard was stretching it a bit, and I probably could've ended the chapter earlier, but I wanted to emphasise that constant distance between them.

Are there bits of the existing dialogue you don't like, or did you just want to see what I would've done differently?

Thanks again!

Modifié par hot_heart, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:21 .

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
@hot_heart:
I just read the three last chapters of your story, which I had forgotten to follow for a while. Very nice. I wish you had not followed the in-game dialogue quite so closely, but otherwise I liked it.

Oh, thank you. Unfortunately, yeah, I set myself the task of adhering to the existing scenes in some form. Though you may notice I altered some of the control chip dialogue at the start, much in the same way I cut Miranda's bit about her father's legacy during the prior conversation with Shepard. It's just old information we don't need.

I know it's not to everyone's liking, but I didn't want to deviate too much, and I kinda like the challenge. Adding in that message from Shepard was stretching it a bit, and I probably could've ended the chapter earlier, but I wanted to emphasise that constant distance between them.

Are there bits of the existing dialogue you don't like, or did you just want to see what I would've done differently?

Thanks again!

I don't like the phrasing of the control chip dialogue. It's so conventionally moralistic that it doesn't feel like the same Miranda who would work for Cerberus. For instance, I believe she'd rather say "...yet I thought nothing of depriving you of your choices" rather than that line about free will. I think Miranda thinks in concrete terms rather than philosophical ones.

[flemm]

I think there are some good things about the control chip dialogue, but it suffers from Jay having a lot of growing up to do as a writer, I think, basically. (That is not intended to be deragotory toward him, but he is inexperienced, and it shows in a lot of places.)

The idea of having Miranda connect her own struggles against her father with the chip is a good one, and having her regret it for that reason makes sense. But why is she confessing? The word choice is presented as significant, but what does it mean? Is Miranda supposed to be having some sort of religious conversion or something? I don't think so, but it's a term that would be more appropriate coming from Ashley (who we know does have that mindset).

So, I think it's just sloppy word choice, and probably more indicative of the *writer's* mentality than the character's (not necessarily that Jay is religious, but that it's simply the word that he would use in that situation, or the first one that came to mind). This is one of the things that happens when writing is bad: characters start to bleed into one another and become less distinct (and therefore less compelling).

Modifié par flemm, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .

[CrutchCricket]

Maybe Miranda got a tad more philosophical since she stopped directly doing anything?

6 months is quite a bit of time. She's been on the run but I'm sure she's done a great deal of thinking about "where it all went wrong". In fact I'm certain she's had her reflections on Cerberus during this time.

Doesn't excuse her not mentioning them ingame or not being able to throw them in TIM's face. But I could see her mind being made up already before the game starts.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
6 months is quite a bit of time. She's been on the run but I'm sure she's done a great deal of thinking about "where it all went wrong". In fact I'm certain she's had her reflections on Cerberus during this time.

Tbh, I think the idea is more that she isn't confronted with/aware of the reality of what Cerberus has become until she gets to Sanctuary, at which point she shuts it down.

It doesn't "line up" with what's happening in the rest of the game, though, which is part of why it comes across so poorly.

Modifié par flemm, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Tbh, I think the idea is more that she isn't confronted with/aware of the reality of what Cerberus has become until she gets to Sanctuary, at which point she shuts it down.

It doesn't "line up" with what's happening in the rest of the game, though, which is part of why it comes across so poorly.

Grayson was before Sanctuary. And I'm sure they didn't start rolling out partially indoctrinated troops just as Shepard got out of jail. Both of these are bad enough to make Miranda decide what she does. Sanctuary is more horrific because it's civillians and it's full-on husks (to say nothing of personally witnessing it), but the threshold has already been crossed, long ago.

Again doesn't excuse its absence from the game. We shouldn't have to infer this sort of thing.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:13 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Grayson was before Sanctuary. And I'm sure they didn't start rolling out partially indoctrinated troops just as Shepard got out of jail. Both of these are bad enough to make Miranda decide what she does. Sanctuary is more horrific because it's civillians and it's full-on husks (to say nothing of personally witnessing it), but the threshold has already been crossed, long ago.

You know what I think of it overall. Of course you're right.

[hot_heart]

Yeah, I'm with what CrutchCricket is saying. After leaving Cerberus, I can see her being directionless and with a lot of self-examination going on. She's come to recognise the value of people close to her and is taking steps to try and be a bit more open. The "Confess, really" is an added remark, showing that she understands why it was wrong, from Shepard's side, rather than just 'needing to tell him something' to get it off her own mind. Maybe it has affected how she speaks to people, maybe not. That's just me trying to look at it in the most positive light.

And I can see her still trying to bottle up a lot of this turmoil, but that it isn't explored so much in-game is criminal, and a result of such a reduced role.

[enayasoul]

That's because Miranda *isn't* Cerberus anymore. I know that hard for you accept because you're so stuck on Cerberus ideals, Ideldra... the lot of you are. She can't be *that* person anymore... She can be the person that puts a stop the atrocities that are being committed in Cerberus's name. I'm glad she quit that organization and opened her eyes. It's tainted, now more than ever. That one line from Miranda comes to mind. You atone by fixing your mistakes... So in a sense, she's stopping the tainted Cerberus cells. She's helping the Alliance. She's helping Shepard. I believe Cerberus ideals are no longer her ideals. Sure she is going to help humanity like she always have done but it won't have that label of "cerberus" attached to it.

Hot heart - I think you did a great job on the chapter. It really breaks the immersion for me when lines are so different from what's already established. I mean, the essence of that scene is gone. Maybe because I've watched that scene a lot and know what happens. I think you're doing a great job! I've noticed that each chapter is focused on what seems one area. One goal in mind. It's quite interesting.

[krukow]

I think another thing is that, especially for a romanced Miranda, her actual human connection to Shepard has allowed her to see people as people now, and not just resources or a means to an end. I'm not saying Miri would have been okay with sanctuary at any point (she wasn't very proud of where Jack grew up), but post ME2 miri has been humanized and developed a much stronger sense of empathy.

I think?

[flemm]

enayasoul wrote...
She can be the person that puts a stop the atrocities that are being committed in Cerberus's name.

She can and should be that person. 100x more than she is in this game, however.

[hot_heart]

enayasoul wrote...
Hot heart - I think you did a great job on the chapter. It really breaks the immersion for me when lines are so different from what's already established. I mean, the essence of that scene is gone. Maybe because I've watched that scene a lot and know what happens. I think you're doing a great job! I've noticed that each chapter is focused on what seems one area. One goal in mind. It's quite interesting.

Thank you very much!

As for the bolded: Yeah, that's, uh, because Miranda has a very single-minded approach and is completely focused on her 'mission'...nothing at all to do with bad writing or having trouble shaking old scene-by-scene screenwriting habits. Not at all. In the slightest. No siree.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I think there are some good things about the control chip dialogue, but it suffers from Jay having a lot of growing up to do as a writer, I think, basically. (That is not intended to be deragotory toward him, but he is inexperienced, and it shows in a lot of places.)

The idea of having Miranda connect her own struggles against her father with the chip is a good one, and having her regret it for that reason makes sense. But why is she confessing? The word choice is presented as significant, but what does it mean? Is Miranda supposed to be having some sort of religious conversion or something? I don't think so, but it's a term that would be more appropriate coming from Ashley (who we know does have that mindset).

Exactly that. I don't mind that the topic is brought up (though I think it wasn't needed), but it's like Miranda having a religious conversion, and neither do I think they wanted to imply that nor do I think it's in any way appropriate. The way it's written it's also cheesy.

So, I think it's just sloppy word choice, and probably more indicative of the *writer's* mentality than the character's (not necessarily that Jay is religious, but that it's simply the word that he would use in that situation, or the first one that came to mind). This is one of the things that happens when writing is bad: characters start to bleed into one another and become less distinct (and therefore less compelling).

I think so, yes. Unfortunately, we're stuck with the lines Jay W gave her. Not the worst thing that happened to her, but very indicative of everything else that's wrong and where the priorities were in ME3. 

I guess why this annoys me so much is that it's part of the package of turning Miranda into a conventional female stereotype.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:34 .

[fiendishchicken]

enayasoul wrote...

That's because Miranda *isn't* Cerberus anymore. I know that hard for you accept because you're so stuck on Cerberus ideals, Ideldra... the lot of you are. She can't be *that* person anymore... She can be the person that puts a stop the atrocities that are being committed in Cerberus's name. I'm glad she quit that organization and opened her eyes. It's tainted, now more than ever. That one line from Miranda comes to mind. You atone by fixing your mistakes... So in a sense, she's stopping the tainted Cerberus cells. She's helping the Alliance. She's helping Shepard. I believe Cerberus ideals are no longer her ideals. Sure she is going to help humanity like she always have done but it won't have that label of "cerberus" attached to it.

Hot heart - I think you did a great job on the chapter. It really breaks the immersion for me when lines are so different from what's already established. I mean, the essence of that scene is gone. Maybe because I've watched that scene a lot and know what happens. I think you're doing a great job! I've noticed that each chapter is focused on what seems one area. One goal in mind. It's quite interesting.

The pre-indoctrination ME2 Cerberus ideals are what Miranda and my Shepard believes in, though Shepard takes it further in that he'll do it for all of the races, and I'm sure Miranda would too. I imagine Miranda, when being hounded by, say, Ashley (this will be in my fic.) about her prior association with Cerberus, she'll say something like "That's not Cerberus, not anymore. The organization I joined would have been the first to stand behind him. They did, in fact, stand behind him when no one else, including yourself and the alliance, would." 

Remember, Cerberus ideals have been tainted and perverted in ME3, through Reaper influence and indoctrination and exacerbated by TIM's megalomania. One could argue that TIM has been under Reaper influence since the Evolution's comic, but prior to ME3, Cerberus was a shady organization, with brutal methods, but they did have an altruistic goal in mind. And I never once saw TIM or Cerberus as overtly racist. They wanted to advance humanity yes, but they were willing to work with aliens and other groups for humanities benefit. TIM even states in his final minutes (w/ all paragon responses) that all he ever wanted to do was protect humanity. He was even willing to kill himself to stop himself from doing further harm.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:36 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

enayasoul wrote...
She can be the person that puts a stop the atrocities that are being committed in Cerberus's name.

She can and should be that person. 100x more than she is in this game, however.

She can be that person and someone who still believes in the ideals of Cerberus, just not the twisted extremes the Illusive man has taken it to. Unfortunately Miranda's writing in ME3 is largely filler and her writing makes no sense given what's going on around her(reaper war/Cerberus crazy antics)

[Ieldra]

Just noticed this picture again. Grr....I wanted to see both of these in ME3. 

[Td1984]

G02Guy4Tace wrote...

krukow wrote...

I guess it's possible she's just cuddling him in the rubble because she doesn't care if he dies.

Cuz she can just bring him back again. Hell, he hasn't even been exposed to vacuum or reentry yet! It would be a weekend project for Miri.

Well, being dead for a year is a popular tax dodge.
But rebuilding Shepard has to be a piece of cake by now

I'm not so sure to be honest. She mentions having to deal with a lot of "black boxes" on the project and she never felt so blind before. I'm not sure how much of the putting Shep back together was stuff she knew and how much was figured out by someone else and she just had to follow the blueprints without knowing what each piece of tech was or what it did.

I don't know if she could do it all again by herself. If she recruited Sam (R&D background plus she's very smart herself so she would almost certainly be an asset) and possibly Dr. Cole's team, yes they should be able to figure it out with no problem.

[krukow]

Td1984 wrote...

G02Guy4Tace wrote...

krukow wrote...

I guess it's possible she's just cuddling him in the rubble because she doesn't care if he dies.

Cuz she can just bring him back again. Hell, he hasn't even been exposed to vacuum or reentry yet! It would be a weekend project for Miri.

Well, being dead for a year is a popular tax dodge.
But rebuilding Shepard has to be a piece of cake by now

I'm not so sure to be honest. She mentions having to deal with a lot of "black boxes" on the project and she never felt so blind before. I'm not sure how much of the putting Shep back together was stuff she knew and how much was figured out by someone else and she just had to follow the blueprints without knowing what each piece of tech was or what it did.

I don't know if she could do it all again by herself. If she recruited Sam (R&D background plus she's very smart herself so she would almost certainly be an asset) and possibly Dr. Cole's team, yes they should be able to figure it out with no problem.

...I'm pretty sure the crucible team would be happy to help.  Not like they've got much to do.  Well, repair the relays, but that can wait!

[flemm]

Td1984 wrote...
I'm not so sure to be honest. She mentions having to deal with a lot of "black boxes" on the project and she never felt so blind before. I'm not sure how much of the putting Shep back together was stuff she knew and how much was figured out by someone else and she just had to follow the blueprints without knowing what each piece of tech was or what it did.

Well, one has to imagine that the Lazarus project was pretty massive. With specialists in a whole variety of fields. So, even the project lead, who might understand more overall than any one person, wouldn't/couldn't have a detailed understanding of each aspect. A bit like the lead producer of a game needs expert artists, programmers, etc. But is still responsable for the overall "vision."

I guess that might be a bit of a bad metaphor right now, but you see what I mean

So, agreed, except from a humorous standpoint, I don't think it would be trivial at all to rebuild Shepard again.

Modifié par flemm, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:24 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I hate this talk of "humanizing" Miranda. As if being sentimental is somehow a virtue, and being detached somehow inhuman. Hmph.

I smell comparitive shot analysis coming up.

You don't honestly expect Miranda to be like Travis Bickle do you?

She's cold and detached because of the way she was raised. As it turns out...people have a tendency to blossom when they have positive influences in their lives.

Oh! And the real kick in the pants is that Miss Strahovski agrees with me! 

[hot_heart]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Oh! And the real kick in the pants is that Miss Strahovski agrees with me! 

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...


She's cold and detached because of the way she was raised. As it turns out...people have a tendency to blossom when they have positive influences in their lives.

Miranda in ME2 is never particularly cold or detached in private. Only when she is doing her job. It can easily be argued that Miranda is a much healthier individual in ME2 than in ME3.

Which doesn't mean that Shepard doesn't/can't have a positive influence on her.

As to Miss Strahovski's opinion on the ME3 direction, have you ever heard her say anything about it? I haven't. I think it's entirely possible that she initially balked at even doing it, and only agreed insofar as her association with it was minimal.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
As to Miss Strahovski's opinion on the ME3 direction, have you ever heard her say anything about it? I haven't. I think it's entirely possible that she initially balked at even doing it, and only agreed insofar as her association with it was minimal.

I am curious as to her opinion on Miranda's role in ME3. But I doubt she's happy about it. I think she does care about the character. And even if she didn't sidelining Miranda= less cash for her.

[krukow]

I'm pretty sure she got paid her normal fee no matter how many lines she recorded. She's not just a faceless voice actress, she gets real work too.

[Taboo]

I hear lots of things flemm. Sometimes I hear stupid things. I heard the other day that models are now being antagonized more by producers by being called fat to make them lose weight. They did this before but not in this capacity.

Miss Strahovski would not balk at doing more voice work because it's just that, work. She isn't an A list actress and she never will be. She needs to keep working to stay relevant or she'll sink like a stone.

She's known for two things mainly, Chuck and Mass Effect. She'd do more voice work if she was asked.

She isn't in the game more because that's how it was written.