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[Taboo]

The intention of the scene is to make you feel terrible. That's the point. As awful as it is, props to Bioware for making it so painful. Don't do that to people. Don't muck around with their heads.

And now this:

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 août 2012 - 06:00 .

[Thracecius]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Miranda has never had a relationship in her life that hasn't ended with her being...betrayed in some fashion. She doesn't trust Shepard up until halfway through her Loyalty Mission.

Afterwords if pursued, the relationship becomes more concrete. In effect, Shepard is the first real connection she's ever had. That must mean the world to her. I can't imagine how wonderful she feels being around him

She's going to the most dedicated partner in the galaxy.

In a good way.

I completely agree with your analysis of her trust issues, and that only accentuates my point regarding her being strong-willed without being antagonistic. It takes enormous self-restraint for her to follow orders that she disagrees with, which is yet another subtle(?) reason why she's such an impressive character. People who cannot see, or refuse to see, her value are not engaging their brain. More's the pity, because they are missing out on much of the game, not just Miranda's character.

And yes, she is defnitely the most unshakably loyal companion Shepard can find.

Sometimes absolutes are a good thing.

[Taboo]

Those are the kinds of relationships you want to have in your life. When together, people like that really do benefit one another.

It's been shown that women sleep better simply having their boyfriend/husband sleep next to them. Who knew?

I think that's fascinating personally, as it reflects the most basic concepts of being alive. Bioware accomplished it in a video game.

Some film directors spend their entire lives trying to do things like this.

THAT is what art should do.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 août 2012 - 06:10 .

[Thracecius]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

I'm replaying her LM right now (we just got on the elevator after hearing about Niket betraying her), and yah, it's pretty jarring how betrayed she is here, especially when she refers to him not only as her oldest friend, but as her only friend...

Edit: Is Niket where we get the Miri nickname from?  I just heard him use it, and it's the only time I can think of hearing it.

Miri comes from Niket. My Shepard would never call her that. She'll always be Miranda or Miss Lawson.

She doesn't have friends. That's the thing to take away from that conversation. That is so incredibly unhealthy it's not even funny.

I'd imagine having a relationship with Shepard would create an enormous amount of joy for her. Not only is it healthy, it will continue to get stronger the longer they stay together. I'd imagine that time apart has been difficult for her and she states this.

She really, truly is heartbroken if you break up with her in ME3.

Joy is the right word for it. How she manages not to smother Shepard is yet another testament to the strength of character, as most people who are friendless have an instinctive impulse to soak up as much compassion as possible, as quickly as possible, once they find a constant source. I believe the primary reason she has such strong impulse control is due to her high level of intelligence, because somehow, whether through personal experience or from observation, she knows how destabilizing a lack of control can be to any relationship, romantic or otherwise. The fact that Shepard is such a calming influence in that regard only serves to reinforce her belief.

She is a truly remarkable character.

[Taboo]

I think she very much soaks up the attention, but in a healthy way. She's still more than professional and that IS a testament to how great the character is.

But in private, I think she'll a great influence on Shepard and vice versa. And I'm not talking in just sexual terms either (although a healthy sexual relationship creates Oxytocin, a bonding chemical). She has a confidant now, someone who can help her with issues she may be having and who will simply listen to her.

These kinds of things lead to very loyal, very healthy relationships, and being the first one she's ever had, it's going to mean the world to her.

[Thracecius]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The strongest women I know are mothers. Miranda knows what she wants and if she sets her mind to it she can get it done.

But just because she has a baby and Shepard at home doesn't mean she becomes any less...Miranda.

I can't think of anything that would be more pleasing for her than to have a child that she can raise free from her fathers grasp. Said child could do what it wished, a chance that Miranda was never given.

That's because good mothers are, by necessity, more dedicated to their life and ideals than women who are not mothers; they have to be in order to take proper care of their children. That doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions to that rule, but part of the human psyche is to have children and give them the best chance at life possible, which is an incredibly strong motivator for self-improvement and achievement. To see Miranda in that role is, to me, not only a natrual progression of her character, but also a desirable one. She would make an excellent mother, because she has acquired a great deal of wisdom for someone her age, and that will be a great foundation for her to build upon.

[Taboo]

That dedication being used for something like a partner and mother would be tremendous. And for the first time those things are in her grasp. Her inability to conceive will be a hurdle at first, but in light of Project Lazarus, I'd say that getting Miranda baby isn't inconceivable.

Shepard and Miranda are going to be very happy together.

[LanceSolous13]

Interesting thing I found..

Apparently, if you remove the second Squadmate during the Collector Ship mission, Miranda has a different reaction to Cerberus' betrayal.

Miranda: "I-I...I can't believe Cerberus turned its back on us."

[krukow]

I personally don't have a problem with the collector ship mission. I completely understand why TIM did what he did. Sucked for Shep in the moment, but it was a defendable tactical call...

[lillitheris]

Thracecius wrote...

That's because good mothers are, by necessity, more dedicated to their life and ideals than women who are not mothers; they have to be in order to take proper care of their children.

…That’s complete BS, just FYI. Borderline offensive, really.

…

Perhaps Miranda would prefer to simply adopt or foster a child.

[LanceSolous13]

I would agree to the offensive nature of that statement.

[krukow]

lillitheris wrote...

Thracecius wrote...

That's because good mothers are, by necessity, more dedicated to their life and ideals than women who are not mothers; they have to be in order to take proper care of their children.

…That’s complete BS, just FYI. Borderline offensive, really.

…

Perhaps Miranda would prefer to simply adopt or foster a child.

...It's only offensive if you assume he only meant biological mothers.  An adoptive mother is every bit as much a mother as a biological one.  I've done lots of work with childrens groups, and I've seen some AMAZING ones.

To get back on topic, apparantly Miranda's been READING MY EMAILS!! (per her sister)

[LanceSolous13]

Well, were you expecting her not to do so? I mean, They did install EDI and with the Crew hand picked to make Cerberus look like the good guys, I wouldn't be surprised if TIM asked Miranda to read his email.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if TIM asked Mirand to be close to Shepard as a means of trying to control him but she ended up falling for him.

[krukow]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Well, were you expecting her not to do so? I mean, They did install EDI and with the Crew hand picked to make Cerberus look like the good guys, I wouldn't be surprised if TIM asked Miranda to read his email.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if TIM asked Mirand to be close to Shepard as a means of trying to control him but she ended up falling for him.

Going into the game, I could totally see that, but in playing it, she's a total ice queen at first.  She flat out says she's not here to be your friend when you talk to her before Freedom's Progress (think that's the first colony?).  She doesn't warm up to Shepard really until after he's proven himself to her on her loyalty mission.

Now, that would totally explain why Tali acts the way she does if the flotilla asked her to steal tech from the Normandy...


I tease the talimancers.

Modifié par krukow, 01 août 2012 - 07:07 .

[Thracecius]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Those are the kinds of relationships you want to have in your life. When together, people like that really do benefit one another.

It's been shown that women sleep better simply having their boyfriend/husband sleep next to them. Who knew?

I think that's fascinating personally, as it reflects the most basic concepts of being alive. Bioware accomplished it in a video game.

Some film directors spend their entire lives trying to do things like this.

THAT is what art should do.

I agree, and that is why the "vision" that concludes ME3 is so disappointing, because Bioware, of all the game developers I've ever encountered, is the most capable of providing that level of humanity. To seem them fall so short of their previous accomplishments is, well, something like heartbreak.

Speaking of comparisons in achieving emotional involvement, I have to say that from a personal standpoint I find ME2 to be superior in terms of character animation. Sure, there are plenty of cringe-worthy moments in ME2 where some numbnut animator completely ignored object collision (assault rifles in chests, legs in floors, etc.), but on the whole the facial expressions (particularly the small muscle control) and body language were amazing. Conversely, my ME3 experience has been dimished by the apparently rushed character animations (in single-player), both in the face and the body, because even though they seem to be properly blocked out, they lack the refinement that provides the fluidity of movement that the eye expects when it sees a form it recognizes. I'm not just referring to erratic camera angle changes or continuity errors in limb placement either, I'm talking about lip-syncing that should be spot on, but is off because of a lack of key frames. This doesn't mean that I'd necessarily call it bad animation, because it's still superior to most games I've seen (case in point: Fallout 3 trailers made me want to vomit because they were so horrid), but it's not up to the standard Bioware set in ME2.

When it comes to animation, a little knowledge can make it impossible to unsee the flaws you notice. 

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The intention of the scene is to make you feel terrible. That's the point. As awful as it is, props to Bioware for making it so painful. Don't do that to people. Don't muck around with their heads.

And now this:

<3:wub: X ∞

[krukow]

Thracecius wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Those are the kinds of relationships you want to have in your life. When together, people like that really do benefit one another.

It's been shown that women sleep better simply having their boyfriend/husband sleep next to them. Who knew?

I think that's fascinating personally, as it reflects the most basic concepts of being alive. Bioware accomplished it in a video game.

Some film directors spend their entire lives trying to do things like this.

THAT is what art should do.

I agree, and that is why the "vision" that concludes ME3 is so disappointing, because Bioware, of all the game developers I've ever encountered, is the most capable of providing that level of humanity. To seem them fall so short of their previous accomplishments is, well, something like heartbreak.

Speaking of comparisons in achieving emotional involvement, I have to say that from a personal standpoint I find ME2 to be superior in terms of character animation. Sure, there are plenty of cringe-worthy moments in ME2 where some numbnut animator completely ignored object collision (assault rifles in chests, legs in floors, etc.), but on the whole the facial expressions (particularly the small muscle control) and body language were amazing. Conversely, my ME3 experience has been dimished by the apparently rushed character animations (in single-player), both in the face and the body, because even though they seem to be properly blocked out, they lack the refinement that provides the fluidity of movement that the eye expects when it sees a form it recognizes. I'm not just referring to erratic camera angle changes or continuity errors in limb placement either, I'm talking about lip-syncing that should be spot on, but is off because of a lack of key frames. This doesn't mean that I'd necessarily call it bad animation, because it's still superior to most games I've seen (case in point: Fallout 3 trailers made me want to vomit because they were so horrid), but it's not up to the standard Bioware set in ME2.

When it comes to animation, a little knowledge can make it impossible to unsee the flaws you notice. 

I'll agree on some larger animation issues, but some of the facial stuff is AMAZING.  The first time you see Miranda romanced v unromanced is such a subtle, but huge, difference.  I'm literally looking forward to when I get to that scene in ME3 because it's been so long since I mirimanced.
So yeah, some issues in ME3, but some brilliance there as well.

[Sifr]

I always found the reveal about Miranda reading all of Shepard's emails to be hilarious, particularly as Oriana admits that it's probably something she'd do as well.

Miranda was right, she is incredibly funny. I kind of wish Shepard had more chance to interact with Oriana, they barely seem to really speak at all in the third game? Though given the seriousness of Sanctuary, I can understand why.

It's a shame, given their similar sense of humour, I think they'd get on quite well; particularly if Shep's in a romance with Miranda, where you just know they would team up to tease Miri to her wits end.

Though I suspect that she'd be somewhat jealous;

Miranda: No Oriana! I am not going to clone him for you!
Oriana: *mock pouts* But my birthday is coming up, I want one! And you owe me 18 years of presents, Sis!

Modifié par Sifr1449, 01 août 2012 - 07:20 .

[LanceSolous13]

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always found the reveal about Miranda reading all of Shepard's emails to be hilarious, particularly as Oriana admits that it's probably something she'd do as well.

Miranda was right, she is incredibly funny. I kind of wish Shepard had more chance to interact with Oriana, they barely seem to really speak at all in the third game? Though given the seriousness of Sanctuary, I can understand why.

It's a shame, given their similar sense of humour, I think they'd get on quite well; particularly if Shep's in a romance with Miranda, where you just know they would team up to tease Miri to her wits end.

Though I suspect that she'd be somewhat jealous;

Miranda: No Oriana! I am not going to clone him for you!
Oriana: *mock pouts* But my birthday is coming up, I want one! And you owe me 18 years of presents, Sis!

This is why many of us see no reason not to invite Miranda on board the Normandy. We can have pillow talk with Miranda and finally speak with Oriana ourselves.

Similar situation with Kolyat, Wanted to speak with both over futures.

[lillitheris]

krukow wrote...

...It's only offensive if you assume he only meant biological mothers.  An adoptive mother is every bit as much a mother as a biological one.  I've done lots of work with childrens groups, and I've seen some AMAZING ones.

No, I didn’t assume that—adopting a child was a separate thought relating to the challenges of curing sterility. It’s great that people are open-minded enough to think that *gasp* an adoptive mother (or father) could be as good as a biological one (yes, please imagine eyeroll here), but it’s offensive to imply women are somehow perfected by motherhood, or that perfected women choose motherhood.

Anyway, sorry for derailment. That’s a hackle-raising proposition.

Modifié par lillitheris, 01 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[Thracecius]

lillitheris wrote...

Thracecius wrote...

That's because good mothers are, by necessity, more dedicated to their life and ideals than women who are not mothers; they have to be in order to take proper care of their children.

…That’s complete BS, just FYI. Borderline offensive, really.

…

Perhaps Miranda would prefer to simply adopt or foster a child.

Not to be contentious, but you did conveniently forget to include the following sentence, which plainly states that there are exceptions. My word choice may have been inaccurate, but in all honesty I think the response a little defensive sounding considering it is only my opinion (as is everything I post). That being said, it was not intended to cause offense, so for what it's worth, I offer my sincerest apology.

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

I'm replaying her LM right now (we just got on the elevator after hearing about Niket betraying her), and yah, it's pretty jarring how betrayed she is here, especially when she refers to him not only as her oldest friend, but as her only friend...

Edit: Is Niket where we get the Miri nickname from?  I just heard him use it, and it's the only time I can think of hearing it.

Miri comes from Niket. My Shepard would never call her that. She'll always be Miranda or Miss Lawson.

She doesn't have friends. That's the thing to take away from that conversation. That is so incredibly unhealthy it's not even funny.

I'd imagine having a relationship with Shepard would create an enormous amount of joy for her. Not only is it healthy, it will continue to get stronger the longer they stay together. I'd imagine that time apart has been difficult for her and she states this.

She really, truly is heartbroken if you break up with her in ME3.

I agree with all of this.

[lillitheris]

Thracecius wrote...

Not to be contentious, but you did conveniently forget to include the following sentence, which plainly states that there are exceptions.

I didn’t. You’re implying normalcy of one option, and graciously granting that by some miracle it could be possible that a non-mother could actually be a good woman. (Yes, I’m exaggerating.)

My word choice may have been inaccurate, but in all honesty I think the response a little defensive sounding considering it is only my opinion (as is everything I post). That being said, it was not intended to cause offense, so for what it's worth, I offer my sincerest apology.

Accepted, with the hope that you’ll re-examine the reasons why you are of the opinion you seem to be.

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard was never a god. He was a soldier. I thought that was more than evident especially in the beginning of ME2.

He's an extraordinary individual thrown into an extraordinary situation, nothing more.

And Harbinger's beam...

[Sifr]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always found the reveal about Miranda reading all of Shepard's emails to be hilarious, particularly as Oriana admits that it's probably something she'd do as well.

Miranda was right, she is incredibly funny. I kind of wish Shepard had more chance to interact with Oriana, they barely seem to really speak at all in the third game? Though given the seriousness of Sanctuary, I can understand why.

It's a shame, given their similar sense of humour, I think they'd get on quite well; particularly if Shep's in a romance with Miranda, where you just know they would team up to tease Miri to her wits end.

Though I suspect that she'd be somewhat jealous;

Miranda: No Oriana! I am not going to clone him for you!
Oriana: *mock pouts* But my birthday is coming up, I want one! And you owe me 18 years of presents, Sis!

This is why many of us see no reason not to invite Miranda on board the Normandy. We can have pillow talk with Miranda and finally speak with Oriana ourselves.

Similar situation with Kolyat, Wanted to speak with both over futures.

Exactly, she seems to have too much personality to be just characterised as just Miranda's sister who is always in need of being saved.

Same with Kolyat, it'd have been nice to have him aboard and explore the idea that he's now training to become a priest. People fall back on their faith in times of hardship and yet we see a woeful lack of religion in ME3.

Why do I have the bizarre urge to ship Oriana/Kolyat?