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[Thracecius]

krukow wrote...

Thracecius wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Those are the kinds of relationships you want to have in your life. When together, people like that really do benefit one another.

It's been shown that women sleep better simply having their boyfriend/husband sleep next to them. Who knew?

I think that's fascinating personally, as it reflects the most basic concepts of being alive. Bioware accomplished it in a video game.

Some film directors spend their entire lives trying to do things like this.

THAT is what art should do.

I agree, and that is why the "vision" that concludes ME3 is so disappointing, because Bioware, of all the game developers I've ever encountered, is the most capable of providing that level of humanity. To seem them fall so short of their previous accomplishments is, well, something like heartbreak.

Speaking of comparisons in achieving emotional involvement, I have to say that from a personal standpoint I find ME2 to be superior in terms of character animation. Sure, there are plenty of cringe-worthy moments in ME2 where some numbnut animator completely ignored object collision (assault rifles in chests, legs in floors, etc.), but on the whole the facial expressions (particularly the small muscle control) and body language were amazing. Conversely, my ME3 experience has been dimished by the apparently rushed character animations (in single-player), both in the face and the body, because even though they seem to be properly blocked out, they lack the refinement that provides the fluidity of movement that the eye expects when it sees a form it recognizes. I'm not just referring to erratic camera angle changes or continuity errors in limb placement either, I'm talking about lip-syncing that should be spot on, but is off because of a lack of key frames. This doesn't mean that I'd necessarily call it bad animation, because it's still superior to most games I've seen (case in point: Fallout 3 trailers made me want to vomit because they were so horrid), but it's not up to the standard Bioware set in ME2.

When it comes to animation, a little knowledge can make it impossible to unsee the flaws you notice. 

I'll agree on some larger animation issues, but some of the facial stuff is AMAZING.  The first time you see Miranda romanced v unromanced is such a subtle, but huge, difference.  I'm literally looking forward to when I get to that scene in ME3 because it's been so long since I mirimanced.
So yeah, some issues in ME3, but some brilliance there as well.

I didn't claim that ME3 did not contain some brilliantly animated moments, just that, on the whole, I found the character animation in ME2 to be superior. Every animation flaw that I noticed could have been fixed by Bioware's talented team, but they likely just ran out of time to make that final refining pass.

And I agree, the differences in Miranda's emotive responses are all about subtlety.

[o Ventus]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Exactly, she seems to have too much personality to be just characterised as just Miranda's sister who is always in need of being saved.

I agree. Oriana gives me the vibe of strong naivetè, but genuine intelligence. Plus her chat with Miranda in the LotSB terminal was nice (Even if I don't like what it implies).

Why do I have the bizarre urge to ship Oriana/Kolyat?

Ehh, why not? It doesn't sound nearly as weird (or stupid) as Kaidan/Miranda, or Wrex/Ashley.

[LanceSolous13]

o Ventus wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Exactly, she seems to have too much personality to be just characterised as just Miranda's sister who is always in need of being saved.

I agree. Oriana gives me the vibe of strong naivetè, but genuine intelligence. Plus her chat with Miranda in the LotSB terminal was nice (Even if I don't like what it implies).

Why do I have the bizarre urge to ship Oriana/Kolyat?

Ehh, why not? It doesn't sound nearly as weird (or stupid) as Kaidan/Miranda, or Wrex/Ashley.

It could be interesting. Kolyat would be around Ori's age anyways.

[Thracecius]

lillitheris wrote...

krukow wrote...

...It's only offensive if you assume he only meant biological mothers.  An adoptive mother is every bit as much a mother as a biological one.  I've done lots of work with childrens groups, and I've seen some AMAZING ones.

No, I didn’t assume that—adopting a child was a separate thought relating to the challenges of curing sterility. It’s great that people are open-minded enough to think that *gasp* an adoptive mother (or father) could be as good as a biological one (yes, please imagine eyeroll here), but it’s offensive to imply women are somehow perfected by motherhood, or that perfected women choose motherhood.

Anyway, sorry for derailment. That’s a hackle-raising proposition.

It was not my intent to imply such a thing, lillitheris, because as a rule I have a lot of respect for women regardless of their...familial status?, but in rereading my post I can see how it could be interpreted as you indicated. So, again, I sincerely apologize for my inarticulately composed thoughts, I meant no offense.



Clearly I needed more than the two hours of sleep that I managed to get last night. 

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Well, it would be interesting to know exactly how it went down, but I'm not sure Mac Walters was the right choice as lead writer for this particular game, given what they were trying to do with it. I've always found it odd that Walters, who always says he likes Cerberus and its moral ambiguity so much, would choose to go down this path with them, but it's probably what Hudson wanted (as it basically turns Cerberus into a Star Wars-esque antagonist).

Yeah i don't think Cerberus can be laid at Mac's door. Think he would have gone for a greyer portrayal if he had a choice.My issue with Mac is i get the impression he's not very interested in player choice in the story and more concerned with defined version of the story he is trying to tell.

[lillitheris]

I don’t see how Cerberus could have been any other kind of a villain in the end. They’d have been helping, instead…which would have been an interesting development in a vacuum, but that would have invalidated the whole storyline about the decades of indoctrination.

If you play with fire, you’re going to get burned. TIM finally took that last step whence there was no return.

Where it fell flat was that the rogue Cerberus side wasn’t addressed enough (even though I don’t really think the idea of “retaking” KKK…sorry, Cerberus…a plausible idea.) I think they may have envisioned that expanded in a DLC.

(I just find it funny that for all the talk about nuance, the effort seems to be to reduce nuance of Miranda by—arguably—introducing nuance into Cerberus.)

Modifié par lillitheris, 01 août 2012 - 10:01 .

[Ieldra]

JeanLuc761 wrote...
In Mass Effect 3, Miranda is essentially a covert operative, with specific emphasis on working under the radar. It occurred to me that it's a bit bizarre for someone operating under the radar to be wearing the same outfit she wore while under Cerberus employ (minus the Cerberus insignia). While I can't alter the model in any shape or model, what are your thoughts on heavily altering the existing outfit to something that's more subtle, and also more personable? I'm still going to be constricted by her boots, arms and belts, but I think Miranda could look more..."appropriate," for lack of a better word.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]
I would appreciate an outfit mod for Miranda in ME3. Do it!

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Walters writing is sterile. It's focused on employing emotion through forced action. A good example is the child. His death forces an emotion on the audience and player character when it should be their choice.

It also explains why people who didn't romance Miranda think she's such a ****. Patrick Weekes is the one responsible for keeping her from a Kubrick-esque state of coldness.

That explains so much.

I don't know. I found most of his writing of Miranda in ME2 pretty good. Everything with one exception, really (the betrayal line at the CB of course). That's about the same as with Weekes' part (here the exception is Miranda's romance conflict line). 

My main objection to Walters is that he appears to be unwilling to abide by certain SF genre conventions, using comic book genre conventions instead.

[LanceSolous13]

So, I've been focusing on a Fan-Script idea for a Jack/Miranda DLC that focus' on the taking down a Cerberus HQ that's taking kidnapped civilians and building them into Cerberus Mooks. Jack wants to shut it down because its using data collected from Pragia and Miranda wants to shut it down to criple Cerberus.

So, I need some help with ideas.

I'm currently working with the idea that this'll take place post-Thessia but can be completed post-Sanctuary. After the mission, Miranda and Jack are optionally recruitable. Should Miranda be recruited pre-Sanctuary, Horizon will play out differently, probabaly in a similar maner to if Miranda died in ME2. Should Miranda be recruited, She'll be a perma-squaddie for that mission.

Anyways, with both being recruitable post-Thessia, its a bit more realistic to each character's story and is easier for coding and writing as all that would need to be written would be Sanctuary Dialogue and then London Dialogue with Normandy Evac goodbyes plus a proper romance scene for each.

So, I have this idea of Miranda being the capitan of a smaller ship which is what Shepard gave to her in the appartment scene. Now, I have no idea what to name the ship as I have no idea how they're named and I'm looking for something clever. Like, Gernsback from Jacob's Loyalty Mission was a refference to a Si-fi Pulp Fiction Author.

I also need to give this area of Cerberus a face. An antagonist for the DLC. But, I have no idea who's really left to use. Any ideas?

[Ieldra]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
Of course, but he kept getting things done and I wanted a scene like that to show that no he can't always win (in ME3 of course). ME1 had it with Saren, ME2 had...Harbinger. ME3 had Kai Leng but he wasn't as good as what they had him doing in the 1st leaked script of the game.

Replace the cheap fight at Thessia with the above and I think that character would have resonated more with fans, maybe on the level Saren did in ME1.

I was about to write that the fight on Thessia ruined Kai Leng. Before, he wasn't exactly impressive but OK as an antagonist. That scene where he knocked out Shepard with a piece of rebar sounded very impressive on paper. For how such a scene could work, I recommend reading chapter 4/4 of Elvern's fanfic "Degree of Inheritance" (she's still working on the last chapter, just in case someone feels like asking).

But then we wouldn't have had ballerina Kai Leng...hmm

Hehe....Kai Leng's certainly an acceptable target for such things.

[LanceSolous13]

*rolling on the ground laughing*

*very high pitched* Oh my god! Oh my god!

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The problem with this is the impression it creates that Miranda does all those awesome things because of a lack of more "normal" things in her life, that her ideals, her drive, her competence are all substitutes. But her drive and her competence is what makes Miranda special, different from the sterotypical women still too prevalent in fiction.  Make it unambiguous that one side is genuine, then I'll also accept the other side.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...
I'll agree on some larger animation issues, but some of the facial stuff is AMAZING.  The first time you see Miranda romanced v unromanced is such a subtle, but huge, difference.  I'm literally looking forward to when I get to that scene in ME3 because it's been so long since I mirimanced.
So yeah, some issues in ME3, but some brilliance there as well.

I have to agree with this. Facial animations in Miranda's first scene in ME3 are great. I also have far less issues with the animations in general than in ME2. Scenes in general are much more fluid, and that's a good thing, even if part of it is due to the hated autodialogue.

[Ozzy]

Miranda was my Shep's LI carried through to ME3. I loved the renegade banter between the two. Probably why I was gutted when she wasn't in my ME3 squad. I think she would have been a good fit. Still, I'm pleased with her involvement in the game.
I'm still a bit annoyed about Orianna though. For a genetic twin, she sure looks a hell of a lot different than Miri. Would it have been hard to replicate the Miranda model and alter it to make her look younger/more innocent?

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I don’t see how Cerberus could have been any other kind of a villain in the end. They’d have been helping, instead…which would have been an interesting development in a vacuum, but that would have invalidated the whole storyline about the decades of indoctrination.

Would have been easy enough, speaking theoretically. Obviously it would have required lots of changes to the whole story outline.

The storyline about decades of indoctrination isn't handled that well as is anyway, because it really only comes into play suddenly at the end.

Modifié par flemm, 01 août 2012 - 01:52 .

[jtav]

Given the debate about Miranda's characterization and likability would anyone be interested in a post on difficult heroines from a romance blog I frequent?

[flemm]

Sure

[fiendishchicken]

LanceSolous13 wrote...



*rolling on the ground laughing*

*very high pitched* Oh my god! Oh my god!

Yes I have seen this video.







We are not amused.

[jtav]

Difficult Heroines

One of the things that struck me was a remark in the comments about the heroines being nice. Which tended to equate with dull. I think the same kind of thing happened in ME3. ME2 Miranda could be abrasive, cold, even cruel, but she was also practical, capable, determined, and loyal. I knew very few people who were indifferent to her. She wasn't made to be liked, but to be a specific character. People liking her was a consequence of that. ME3 Miranda was written to be liked, but only succeeds in being bland.

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The problem with this is the impression it creates that Miranda does all those awesome things because of a lack of more "normal" things in her life, that her ideals, her drive, her competence are all substitutes. But her drive and her competence is what makes Miranda special, different from the sterotypical women still too prevalent in fiction.  Make it unambiguous that one side is genuine, then I'll also accept the other side.

See, I just never took it that way.  She is who she is.  She doesn't have time for incompetance because she doesn't have time for incompetance.  She can still crush mechs and drill you between the eyes.  And she's still invested in the future of humanity/the galaxy (ME3 writing be damned!).  The family stuff just rounded her out into a fully realized character for me, instead of some videogame stock character who only had one aspect to her personality, but can be "improved" by the player.  

To put it a different way, the family reveals for Miranda to me change her story from "shep comes along and shows her how to be human" to "in Shepard, she finally finds something she'd been looking for."  I'm not a big fan of the "protagonist gets the girl in the end" trope, simply because it treates the female in that equation as an attainment, and not a person.  For me, the more family orientated side/desires of Miranda validate the character and romance.  It isn't the story of Shepard nailing the femme fatale, it's the story of two realized characters finding happiness together.

That's just my opinion though, and I can see how annoying it would be if people treated it like it made her more professional talents/goals invalid.

Modifié par krukow, 01 août 2012 - 02:35 .

[Dragon_Claw]

LanceSolous13 wrote...



*rolling on the ground laughing*

*very high pitched* Oh my god! Oh my god!

Poor Miri, but still funny as hell!  

[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...

Difficult Heroines

One of the things that struck me was a remark in the comments about the heroines being nice. Which tended to equate with dull. I think the same kind of thing happened in ME3. ME2 Miranda could be abrasive, cold, even cruel, but she was also practical, capable, determined, and loyal. I knew very few people who were indifferent to her. She wasn't made to be liked, but to be a specific character. People liking her was a consequence of that. ME3 Miranda was written to be liked, but only succeeds in being bland.

I disagree. I simply felt like I'd done her loyalty mission and attained a unique bond with her. Thus she treated me like a friend (or more, if you romanced her). It didn't make her bland.

We just didn't see her interacting with other people that much, just Shepard. Whom she trusts.

[flemm]

Nightwriter wrote...
I disagree. I simply felt like I'd done her loyalty mission and attained a unique bond with her. Thus she treated me like a friend (or more, if you romanced her). It didn't make her bland.

Well, people still care about Miranda because they already cared a lot. So, as an extension of that this can be ok, albeit lacking in content.

Modifié par flemm, 01 août 2012 - 02:53 .

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The problem with this is the impression it creates that Miranda does all those awesome things because of a lack of more "normal" things in her life, that her ideals, her drive, her competence are all substitutes. But her drive and her competence is what makes Miranda special, different from the sterotypical women still too prevalent in fiction.  Make it unambiguous that one side is genuine, then I'll also accept the other side.

See, I just never took it that way.  She is who she is.  She doesn't have time for incompetance because she doesn't have time for incompetance.  She can still crush mechs and drill you between the eyes.  And she's still invested in the future of humanity/the galaxy (ME3 writing be damned!).  The family stuff just rounded her out into a fully realized character for me, instead of some videogame stock character who only had one aspect to her personality, but can be "improved" by the player.  

To put it a different way, the family reveals for Miranda to me change her story from "shep comes along and shows her how to be human" to "in Shepard, she finally finds something she'd been looking for."  I'm not a big fan of the "protagonist gets the girl in the end" trope, simply because it treates the female in that equation as an attainment, and not a person.  For me, the more family orientated side/desires of Miranda validate the character and romance.  It isn't the story of Shepard nailing the femme fatale, it's the story of two realized characters finding happiness together.

That's just my opinion though, and I can see how annoying it would be if people treated it like it made her more professional talents/goals invalid.

It's exactely that. Two people finding hapiness together. Just because she wants a child doesn't make anything else invalid.

The deal is is that she's never really had much TIME in her life to do any of these things. Furthermore she's never had...anyone to do it with. It's difficult to have a partner without an actual...you know...person.

When the war is over, I honestly don't see why she can't be Super Mom/Super Wife/Super Professional.

She'd be damn good at all three.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The problem with this is the impression it creates that Miranda does all those awesome things because of a lack of more "normal" things in her life, that her ideals, her drive, her competence are all substitutes. But her drive and her competence is what makes Miranda special, different from the sterotypical women still too prevalent in fiction.  Make it unambiguous that one side is genuine, then I'll also accept the other side.

See, I just never took it that way.  She is who she is.  She doesn't have time for incompetance because she doesn't have time for incompetance.  She can still crush mechs and drill you between the eyes.  And she's still invested in the future of humanity/the galaxy (ME3 writing be damned!).  The family stuff just rounded her out into a fully realized character for me, instead of some videogame stock character who only had one aspect to her personality, but can be "improved" by the player.  

To put it a different way, the family reveals for Miranda to me change her story from "shep comes along and shows her how to be human" to "in Shepard, she finally finds something she'd been looking for."  I'm not a big fan of the "protagonist gets the girl in the end" trope, simply because it treates the female in that equation as an attainment, and not a person.  For me, the more family orientated side/desires of Miranda validate the character and romance.  It isn't the story of Shepard nailing the femme fatale, it's the story of two realized characters finding happiness together.

That's just my opinion though, and I can see how annoying it would be if people treated it like it made her more professional talents/goals invalid.

It's exactely that. Two people finding hapiness together. Just because she wants a child doesn't make anything else invalid.

The deal is is that she's never really had much TIME in her life to do any of these things. Furthermore she's never had...anyone to do it with. It's difficult to have a partner without an actual...you know...person.

When the war is over, I honestly don't see why she can't be Super Mom/Super Wife/Super Professional.

She'd be damn good at all three.

I will say this though. I think they should hold off on marriage and a child (I say child because I want them to only have one.) for a few years/a while.

Actually, hold off on the child for a while. I don't necessarily think they as a couple are ready for marriage yet, but they definitely love each other and will be devoted enough to each other for it.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 01 août 2012 - 02:56 .