82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

fiendishchicken wrote...

I will say this though. I think they should hold off on marriage and a child (I say child because I want them to only have one.) for a few years/a while.

Actually, hold off on the child for a while. I don't necessarily think they as a couple are ready for marriage yet, but they definitely love each other and will be devoted enough to each other for it.

They have some rebuilding to do first. That should take precedence over certain things and I think Miranda would be okay with that.

They'll be all over each other in the meantime though. That's a good thing. Give them six months together to help Shepard recover and I think you'd see some amazing things.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They have some rebuilding to do first. That should take precedence over certain things and I think Miranda would be okay with that.

True, Miranda does have a TON of standing outside staring at the night sky to do before anything else...

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They have some rebuilding to do first. That should take precedence over certain things and I think Miranda would be okay with that.

True, Miranda does have a TON of standing outside staring at the night sky to do before anything else...

You want to know something really awful?

The talk you and I had about that scene lead to the only thing I've considered canon post war with Miranda.

My Shepard can't cook.

Maybe Miranda can help. I don't know.

If he's anything like me...

[Nightwriter]

Taboo-XX wrote...

http://partner-ad.ph...onShepard2.jpg

Why is there no kiss here? I mean seriously. Does that not look like the buildup to a kiss to you? And yet, no kiss. It feels like a fakeout and then a sucker punch. Stupid BioWare.

*shuffles away grumbling*

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They have some rebuilding to do first. That should take precedence over certain things and I think Miranda would be okay with that.

True, Miranda does have a TON of standing outside staring at the night sky to do before anything else...

You want to know something really awful?

The talk you and I had about that scene lead to the only thing I've considered canon post war with Miranda.

My Shepard can't cook.

Maybe Miranda can help. I don't know.

If he's anything like me...

I'm pretty sure if Miranda decides she wants to be able to cook, or to teach Shepard to cook, she'll get it done.  It's just a matter of resources, right?

Hey, if you do the high ems destroy with a mirimance, do you only get the night sky slide, or do you get one of the others where she's studying schematics of some kind (city/reaper/etc)?  Because going back to what we were discussing earlier, I do like when the ec shows that Miranda will continue as some sort of awesome professioal who's instrumental in the rebuilding effort in some form or another.

[Stalker]

Nightwriter wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

http://partner-ad.ph...onShepard2.jpg

Why is there no kiss here? I mean seriously. Does that not look like the buildup to a kiss to you? And yet, no kiss. It feels like a fakeout and then a sucker punch. Stupid BioWare.

*shuffles away grumbling*

I wonder why she is the only romance who doesn't get a kiss at all...

[krukow]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

http://partner-ad.ph...onShepard2.jpg

Why is there no kiss here? I mean seriously. Does that not look like the buildup to a kiss to you? And yet, no kiss. It feels like a fakeout and then a sucker punch. Stupid BioWare.

*shuffles away grumbling*

I wonder why she is the only romance who doesn't get a kiss at all...

Don't you get a kiss at the first meet-up?

[Taboo]

If it's High EMS and she's Romanced you get the Night Sky scene. It's more than evident what it means.

Control has her studying the schematics with Oriana.

Unromanced she's looking at plans with some Alliance Soldiers.

It's the same as the above in Synthesis, but she has...a green tint to her skin.

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Don't you get a kiss at the first meet-up?

And it's in public.

A public display of affection is a big thing for her.

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If it's High EMS and she's Romanced you get the Night Sky scene. It's more than evident what it means.

Control has her studying the schematics with Oriana.

Unromanced she's looking at plans with some Alliance Soldiers.

It's the same as the above in Synthesis, but she has...a green tint to her skin.

"Is he up there shooting bottles with Garrus again?  Damnit, doesn't he know we have a high level strategy and resources meeting tomorrow?  Oh sure, he saves the galaxy and that gives him free reign to be a 12 year old for the rest of his life..."

Also, it's only one Miri slide for each EC?  Mirimancers don't get night sky and one of the others?

[Stalker]

krukow wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

http://partner-ad.ph...onShepard2.jpg

Why is there no kiss here? I mean seriously. Does that not look like the buildup to a kiss to you? And yet, no kiss. It feels like a fakeout and then a sucker punch. Stupid BioWare.

*shuffles away grumbling*

I wonder why she is the only romance who doesn't get a kiss at all...

Don't you get a kiss at the first meet-up?

I don't consider that vague kiss on the cheek to count. Yes, display of public affection might be a big thing for her, but even when they are almost alone or completely alone we do not get a kiss.

What's even worse: I get even more intimate moments with a non-romanced Liara...

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 01 août 2012 - 03:29 .

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If it's High EMS and she's Romanced you get the Night Sky scene. It's more than evident what it means.

Control has her studying the schematics with Oriana.

Unromanced she's looking at plans with some Alliance Soldiers.

It's the same as the above in Synthesis, but she has...a green tint to her skin.

"Is he up there shooting bottles with Garrus again?  Damnit, doesn't he know we have a high level strategy and resources meeting tomorrow?  Oh sure, he saves the galaxy and that gives him free reign to be a 12 year old for the rest of his life..."

Also, it's only one Miri slide for each EC?  Mirimancers don't get night sky and one of the others?

That slide is exclusive to her being romanced.

She'll need to find Shepard before she helps rebuild.

She's waiting for her man.

[wright1978]

fiendishchicken wrote...

I will say this though. I think they should hold off on marriage and a child (I say child because I want them to only have one.) for a few years/a while.

Actually, hold off on the child for a while. I don't necessarily think they as a couple are ready for marriage yet, but they definitely love each other and will be devoted enough to each other for it.

In my headcanon i don't see them getting married at all. It's an antiquated institution that serves no function.
Also i don't see them having a kid for a few years at least as there's far too much to be done.

[Nightwriter]

krukow wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

http://partner-ad.ph...onShepard2.jpg

Why is there no kiss here? I mean seriously. Does that not look like the buildup to a kiss to you? And yet, no kiss. It feels like a fakeout and then a sucker punch. Stupid BioWare.

*shuffles away grumbling*

I wonder why she is the only romance who doesn't get a kiss at all...

Don't you get a kiss at the first meet-up?

What, that peck on the cheek? Pffft. I meant a real kiss.

[krukow]

wright1978 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I will say this though. I think they should hold off on marriage and a child (I say child because I want them to only have one.) for a few years/a while.

Actually, hold off on the child for a while. I don't necessarily think they as a couple are ready for marriage yet, but they definitely love each other and will be devoted enough to each other for it.

In my headcanon i don't see them getting married at all. It's an antiquated institution that serves no function.
Also i don't see them having a kid for a few years at least as there's far too much to be done.

And that's the cool thing about headcanon, it can be what you want.  Like, I totally see Miranda being a bridesmaid at the Shepley wedding!

Nah, but I see my mirimance ending in them getting married eventually, though Miri's keeping her last name I feel...

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Difficult Heroines

One of the things that struck me was a remark in the comments about the heroines being nice. Which tended to equate with dull. I think the same kind of thing happened in ME3. ME2 Miranda could be abrasive, cold, even cruel, but she was also practical, capable, determined, and loyal. I knew very few people who were indifferent to her. She wasn't made to be liked, but to be a specific character. People liking her was a consequence of that. ME3 Miranda was written to be liked, but only succeeds in being bland.

Very plausible. "Difficult heroines are just more interesting", indeed!

Jay W should have read this before writing Miranda in ME3. Casey Hudson (or whoever is responsible for the general direction taken with Miranda) should have read this before making decisions about characters in ME3.

There's also a nice comment about redemption arcs:

"The problem with redemption arcs, for me, is that there isn’t a lot of
gray area between a character who’s done something that doesn’t really
need redeeming and one who’s redemption I don’t care about"

That also applies to Miranda as I see it. She might feel that she's called to do something against what Cerberus has become, but she doesn't need redemption, and she definitely doesn't need redemption through death. But go from Miranda towards the darker zone of Cerberus, and it isn't a long way to characters whose redemption I wouldn't care about. I think that's the main reason why I tend to dislike redemption stories.

[Taboo]

Well what kind of kiss were you looking for?

The best kiss I saw in the last few years was in Drive.

Goslings PLANTS one on Mulligan in the Elevator.



And then the rest of the scene plays out...oh my.

[fiendishchicken]

wright1978 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I will say this though. I think they should hold off on marriage and a child (I say child because I want them to only have one.) for a few years/a while.

Actually, hold off on the child for a while. I don't necessarily think they as a couple are ready for marriage yet, but they definitely love each other and will be devoted enough to each other for it.

In my headcanon i don't see them getting married at all. It's an antiquated institution that serves no function.
Also i don't see them having a kid for a few years at least as there's far too much to be done.

Well, I would tend to agree with you in the christian morality sense, but marriage does serve a purpose. Some people do it because it really does make some couples feel closer and more intimate with each other. I think Miranda would definitely be a proponent of that - and it also lets people know that Shepard is now Mr. Miranda Lawson, and that that for women to back off (I imagine Shepard, when he recovers might be the subject of a LOT of female fantasies and admirers.) Miranda also has a possesive streak, and I would infer a jealous streak as well, and she would be the kind who kicks Shepard under the table when the waitress tries to flirt with him or the asari fan who wants an autograph starts to suggest something, even if he politely declines the solicitations. And Miranda would also use marriage to once again further herself from her father, leaving behind his name to show her defiance to her father and devotion to Shepard. Shepard for his part would be the same proponent as the top of my post. 

[flemm]

krukow wrote...

I'm pretty sure if Miranda decides she wants to be able to cook, or to teach Shepard to cook, she'll get it done.  It's just a matter of resources, right?

I think she would specialize in especially difficult cooking challenges, such as...

"The eggless omelette"

"Cooking with your teeth"

"Juggling blenders"

and

"Resurrecting famous dead chefs and making them cook for you"

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

"Resurrecting famous dead chefs and making them cook for you"

The body of Gordon Ramsey has been found.  Project Lazarus II will go forward...

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Some people are not happy with the fact that she wants a child, a husband, a family. Others couldn't care less. Many I've seen take Miranda in anyway because that's the character they saw for the most part, others react violently and are offended by what she's become.

I never got why this was a problem for people.  It's a perfectly normal thing.  It's not like she wanted some man to come take care of her, or to retire to the kitchen as a barefoot mommy.  Hell, she never even sacrifices her goals in pursuit of this.  It's just something she desires alongside her other personal goals.

I think people who take issue with this aspect of Miri's character have a very skewed view of what a strong, independent woman really is.

The problem with this is the impression it creates that Miranda does all those awesome things because of a lack of more "normal" things in her life, that her ideals, her drive, her competence are all substitutes. But her drive and her competence is what makes Miranda special, different from the sterotypical women still too prevalent in fiction.  Make it unambiguous that one side is genuine, then I'll also accept the other side.

See, I just never took it that way.  She is who she is.  She doesn't have time for incompetance because she doesn't have time for incompetance.  She can still crush mechs and drill you between the eyes.  And she's still invested in the future of humanity/the galaxy (ME3 writing be damned!).  The family stuff just rounded her out into a fully realized character for me, instead of some videogame stock character who only had one aspect to her personality, but can be "improved" by the player.  

To put it a different way, the family reveals for Miranda to me change her story from "shep comes along and shows her how to be human" to "in Shepard, she finally finds something she'd been looking for."  I'm not a big fan of the "protagonist gets the girl in the end" trope, simply because it treates the female in that equation as an attainment, and not a person.  For me, the more family orientated side/desires of Miranda validate the character and romance.  It isn't the story of Shepard nailing the femme fatale, it's the story of two realized characters finding happiness together.

That's just my opinion though, and I can see how annoying it would be if people treated it like it made her more professional talents/goals invalid.

Perhaps I'm a little too hair-triggered about things like this, but I tend to dislike family stuff in epic stories - almost universally - because most often it's a cheap way to evoke emotions if no better idea presents itself and because hey, people can't be expected to care about the actual plot, right? And when it becomes part of the plot (instead of being treated as a side issue that's part of a character's life, with no particular relevance to the plot), things tend to get either sentimental or stereotypical or both.

In Miranda's case my dislike is fanned by the infertility because of the shadow it casts on her genetic engineering. The genetic engineering is part of my appreciation of her as a character because I support human enhancement technologies, genetic or otherwise. Seeing a genetically enhanced character without any hint of her being "unnatural" or worse, that was a treat in ME2. Then came LotSB. Giving her a condition that symbolically invalidates her genetic engineering has been driving me up the wall ever since. As a consequence, while I'm normally only skeptical of family stuff in epic stories, in Miranda's case I'm outright hostile to it.

So yes, I want Miranda to be able to have children eventually, but I wish it had never become a topic in her story. Had it not, headcanon with Miranda having a family wouldn't trigger all these unpleasant associations.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There's also a nice comment about redemption arcs:

"The problem with redemption arcs, for me, is that there isn’t a lot of
gray area between a character who’s done something that doesn’t really
need redeeming and one who’s redemption I don’t care about"

That also applies to Miranda as I see it. She might feel that she's called to do something against what Cerberus has become, but she doesn't need redemption, and she definitely doesn't need redemption through death. But go from Miranda towards the darker zone of Cerberus, and it isn't a long way to characters whose redemption I wouldn't care about. I think that's the main reason why I tend to dislike redemption stories.

To decide if a character needs redemption you must decide if they've done anything wrong. This affects either what you present as evidence (or how you do so), or how characters react to it. But more importantly is how the character themselves see it, if they think it wrong or not.

Example: Mordin. His was done brilliantly. I think the best part about his arc is how complex his judgement really is. It was a mistake to uplift the krogan but the genophage was necessary. And yet the whole business was wrong and he feels bad. There's all these different layers, logic and emotion, necessity vs morality, then and now. And he covers all of them. And in the end not only do you understand it but you sort of agree with it too.

Miranda has... just emptiness.

All products of indifference of course. If you've already decided you're not going to waste too much time on something, you're not going to bother layering it.

[jtav]

I have no problem with Miranda wanting or having children--just give me a choice if I'm romancing her. My problem with it in-game is the same as Ieldra's: it's presented as a binary: she can be a capable spy and scientist *or* have a family but not both. It also feeds the myth that a woman can't be happy without also being a mother. That the accomplishments are a substitute for what she can't have.

I submit this is why the Control slide is so popular: it's not binary. She has Ori and she's doing something cool.

[jtav]

Speaking of slides:

Would you believe one reason I don't choose Destroy is I don't like the romance slide? The scenery is pretty but it doesn't feel Miranda-y. I'd have had Miranda bent over some terminals with medical holos in the background, suggesting she's working on restoring him.

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

I have no problem with Miranda wanting or having children--just give me a choice if I'm romancing her. My problem with it in-game is the same as Ieldra's: it's presented as a binary: she can be a capable spy and scientist *or* have a family but not both. It also feeds the myth that a woman can't be happy without also being a mother. That the accomplishments are a substitute for what she can't have.

I submit this is why the Control slide is so popular: it's not binary. She has Ori and she's doing something cool.

I may misunderstand what you're saying, but I don't think you should get to choose wether Miranda wants children/family or not.  You get to chose what your shep is, not what other characters are.  Though that could lead to interesting discussions down the road if your shep doesn't want them (hint: women usually win that debate).

Also, I never see it as presented as binary.  I see her obsession with finding her sister a stupid reason to write her out of most of ME3, but that isn't the same as her desire for a family.  I think a lot of the conflict is being read into the character, as opposed to expressed.