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[hot_heart]

LanceSolous13 wrote...
I don't mind the Reapers not having more motive than Self-Preservation as given in ME2. That was all well and good.

Well, it was the dark energy thing, really.

But enough about the endings. I think the DLC will be interesting if they've got more squad interaction, as they seem to be doing, this time round. Even if I'm not too fond of most of the squad...

[LanceSolous13]

hot_heart wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
I don't mind the Reapers not having more motive than Self-Preservation as given in ME2. That was all well and good.

Well, it was the dark energy thing, really.

But enough about the endings. I think the DLC will be interesting if they've got more squad interaction, as they seem to be doing, this time round. Even if I'm not too fond of most of the squad...

Yay! More Cortez! Whee! He was one of my Faves.

Just wish they had more interaction in the first place...

[Ieldra]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
I'm actually interested in Levithian. As much as I really REALLY REALLY hate going back on the Lovecraftian idea of the Reapers, the DLC does have me interested for some reason. DAMN YOU BIOWARE! YOU'VE INDOCTRINATED ME!

Admit it, you're just as interested in a good mystery and deciphering it as I am

I don't mind the Reapers not having more motive than Self-Preservation as given in ME2. That was all well and good.

ME3 tries to give them deeper dimentions which they were never designed for...

I disagree. They were designed for it. If you play ME2, listen to everything and read between the lines, you'll notice the roots of most of these "deeper dimensions" about the Reapers were already there. In fact, I've speculated that they're some kind of ascended collective mind after meeting Sovereign on Virmire. The new thing is their purpose. Also, remember the early dark energy plot? That would have been another understandable purpose. No, I think the Reapers were never meant to stay Lovecraftian horrors.

I'm curious about Levithian because it looks, in the great and amazingly insightful words of Sere Thane Krios, 'Interesting'.

I'm also curious if Bioware has learned from their mistakes and is actually going to recognise that there is no room for error here.

Not sure what you mean. How can they go wrong in your opinion?

[Ieldra]

Hmm.....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 août 2012 - 11:05 .

[LanceSolous13]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
I'm actually interested in Levithian. As much as I really REALLY REALLY hate going back on the Lovecraftian idea of the Reapers, the DLC does have me interested for some reason. DAMN YOU BIOWARE! YOU'VE INDOCTRINATED ME!

Admit it, you're just as interested in a good mystery and deciphering it as I am

I don't mind the Reapers not having more motive than Self-Preservation as given in ME2. That was all well and good.

ME3 tries to give them deeper dimentions which they were never designed for...

I disagree. They were designed for it. If you play ME2, listen to everything and read between the lines, you'll notice the roots of most of these "deeper dimensions" about the Reapers were already there. In fact, I've speculated that they're some kind of ascended collective mind after meeting Sovereign on Virmire. The new thing is their purpose. Also, remember the early dark energy plot? That would have been another understandable purpose. No, I think the Reapers were never meant to stay Lovecraftian horrors.

Yes, they hint at higher motivations and ete, I remember Harbinger. That doesn't mean they were designed to be revealed. When you label something as incomprehensable, its effectvly labling it as 'You're not going to find out'. Its impossible for a writer to create something imcomprehensable so never revealing it is the obvious answer otherwise, you'll dissapoint fan and also, it'll obviously be comprehensable.

I was totally fine with keeping the Self-Preservation Motive which still left the door open enough for 'incomprehensability' and that Air of Mystery about them I loved.

One thing many people forget, Its the things unexplained that we take with us and that we'll remember when we look back on something.

I'm curious about Levithian because it looks, in the great and amazingly insightful words of Sere Thane Krios, 'Interesting'.

I'm also curious if Bioware has learned from their mistakes and is actually going to recognise that there is no room for error here.

Not sure what you mean. How can they go wrong in your opinion?

I don't even want to think about what could go wrong...

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm very much looking forward to Leviathan.

As for Genesis 2.0, we can always **** about the art and hilariously inaccurate descriptions.

Genesis 2.0? You'll have to explain that to me.

[Lawrence0294]

spirosz wrote...

Wow, this is really beautifull 

@Luis: I can definetly see her as a person who likes movies but as you said, she'll be very picky in plotholes and science fact.

[jtav]

I want the Reapers thoroughly demystified. They're only machines (well, techno-organic constructs). They are not inherently unknowable gods. Peel back the curtain.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I'm very much looking forward to Leviathan.

As for Genesis 2.0, we can always **** about the art and hilariously inaccurate descriptions.

Genesis 2.0? You'll have to explain that to me.

Comic allowing Wii players to make choices.

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

I want the Reapers thoroughly demystified. They're only machines (well, techno-organic constructs). They are not inherently unknowable gods. Peel back the curtain.

Its the same issue as the endings though. Nothing any writer creates as a motive for the Reapers would be 'incomprehensable' like is constantly hammered in through the entire trilogy and nothing any writer creates will be very satisfying.

That's the issue of labling something as 'incomprehensable' or 'unknowable'.

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I'm very much looking forward to Leviathan.

As for Genesis 2.0, we can always **** about the art and hilariously inaccurate descriptions.

Genesis 2.0? You'll have to explain that to me.

Comic allowing Wii players to make choices.

...I have a feeling this will be DLC for ME3 at some point but...Erm....Why did't we get this in Square one?

[jtav]

Then reveal them as self-important windbags. Their greatest weapon is the terror they inspire, that sense of incomprehensibility. Strip them of it.

[jtav]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Comic allowing Wii players to make choices.

...I have a feeling this will be DLC for ME3 at some point but...Erm....Why did't we get this in Square one?

It was the same with ME2. Default game for new players, then Genesis packaged withe PS3, then Genesis released on all platforms.

Expect Miranda to be wildly mischaracterized.

[Ieldra]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
ME3 tries to give them deeper dimentions which they were never designed for...

I disagree. They were designed for it. If you play ME2, listen to everything and read between the lines, you'll notice the roots of most of these "deeper dimensions" about the Reapers were already there. In fact, I've speculated that they're some kind of ascended collective mind after meeting Sovereign on Virmire. The new thing is their purpose. Also, remember the early dark energy plot? That would have been another understandable purpose. No, I think the Reapers were never meant to stay Lovecraftian horrors.

Yes, they hint at higher motivations and ete, I remember Harbinger. That doesn't mean they were designed to be revealed. When you label something as incomprehensable, its effectvly labling it as 'You're not going to find out'. Its impossible for a writer to create something imcomprehensable so never revealing it is the obvious answer otherwise, you'll dissapoint fan and also, it'll obviously be comprehensable.

Again, I disagree. Hinting at higher motives is like a promise that at some point they will be revealed. I would have found it an epic disappointment if  "Reaperduction" was all there was to the cycle after all those hints that there's more. In fact, it would probably ruined the trilogy for me. An SF trilogy that ends up with nothing more interesting than "kill the monsters"? Boring. That's not why I'm a fan of SF. Any generic fantasy story will give me that. 

I was totally fine with keeping the Self-Preservation Motive which still left the door open enough for 'incomprehensability' and that Air of Mystery about them I loved.

One thing many people forget, Its the things unexplained that we take with us and that we'll remember when we look back on something.

Perhaps that's true for you, but not for me, at least not in the way you mean it. Leaving the Reapers unexplained, even worse, leaving the impression they're intrinsically unexplainable, that would have - forgive the cheesy metaphor - settled like a cancer in my soul. That's not what I like to take away from my stories.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 août 2012 - 11:40 .

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Comic allowing Wii players to make choices.

...I have a feeling this will be DLC for ME3 at some point but...Erm....Why did't we get this in Square one?

It was the same with ME2. Default game for new players, then Genesis packaged withe PS3, then Genesis released on all platforms.

Expect Miranda to be wildly mischaracterized.

I meant with the fact that Bioware keeps advertising this as the best place to start the series...Execpt, Non-imports are horribly screwed.

Also, I wonder how much detail they'll even go through on each squadmate. Or if Kasumi and Zaeed will be included. They're fan favorites too.

[Ieldra]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I want the Reapers thoroughly demystified. They're only machines (well, techno-organic constructs). They are not inherently unknowable gods. Peel back the curtain.

Its the same issue as the endings though. Nothing any writer creates as a motive for the Reapers would be 'incomprehensable' like is constantly hammered in through the entire trilogy and nothing any writer creates will be very satisfying.

That's the issue of labling something as 'incomprehensable' or 'unknowable'.

Perhaps the main difference between us is that when I read "incomprehensible", it's always "not *yet* comprehensible" for me. I see it as a challenge to demystify things. I would have had no problem at all with the  Reapers' purpose as given hadn't it created a narrative inconsistency with what came before. It was suitably epic in scope, and strange enough that as a rule, people didn't *want* to understand it. There are also enough unsolved questions about why the Catalyst would think the cycle is a solution to keep my mind engaged.

Anway, perhaps I should think more about Miranda here and make a separate thread about this topic.

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

Then reveal them as self-important windbags. Their greatest weapon is the terror they inspire, that sense of incomprehensibility. Strip them of it.

The issue is, That's exactly what made them compelling villans in the first place. Its what made them interesting. Taking that away is EXACTLY the same as explaining why Cuthlu does what he does. It doesn't make them frightening, It doesn't make them interesting, and it doesn't make them compelling.

When you go to a horror movie, What is a better villan? The dark malevelent force that is trying to kill you; the force that is horribly overpowered/nigh unstopable and you can only guess as to why its trying to kill you and quite posisbly never knowing why its trying to kill you? Or, the technology-special effects nerd in a halloween costume that wants to kill you for not noticing him in Gym class?

Anything that anyone writes as a motive for the Reapers is going to be horribly unsatisfying and perfectly comprehensable as well as not making the slightest sense when put together with Harbinger and Sovrign's Dialogue in the previous two games.

As it is, Those scenes are cringe worthy once you know everything.

This was always one of those things I'd wake up a few years from now and ponder with myself what their true motives actually were.

Heck, The incomprehensable-unknowable motive is also very present in the Science Fiction Genre. War of the Worlds for starters.

[LanceSolous13]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Anway, perhaps I should think more about Miranda here and make a separate thread about this topic.

Oh. Come on. This is the most interesting debate we've had in weeks.

Modifié par LanceSolous13, 03 août 2012 - 11:45 .

[flemm]

spirosz wrote...

Awesome:wizard:

I love how, in this scene, Miranda seems to know some crazy **** is about to go down

[LanceSolous13]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I want the Reapers thoroughly demystified. They're only machines (well, techno-organic constructs). They are not inherently unknowable gods. Peel back the curtain.

Its the same issue as the endings though. Nothing any writer creates as a motive for the Reapers would be 'incomprehensable' like is constantly hammered in through the entire trilogy and nothing any writer creates will be very satisfying.

That's the issue of labling something as 'incomprehensable' or 'unknowable'.

Perhaps the main difference between us is that when I read "incomprehensible", it's always "not *yet* comprehensible" for me. I see it as a challenge to demystify things. I would have had no problem at all with the  Reapers' purpose as given hadn't it created a narrative inconsistency with what came before. It was suitably epic in scope, and strange enough that as a rule, people didn't *want* to understand it. There are also enough unsolved questions about why the Catalyst would think the cycle is a solution to keep my mind engaged.

And, this slightly leads into why my mind isn't ingaged into ME3.

Thane will always die in the Citadel Coup.
Kai Leng will always get the Prothean VI.
Shepard will always buy the Catalysts' bull****.

What keeps my mind ingaged are things I can think about and ponder on; such as the Reaper's motivations. Its what kept me entertianed during ME1's very lengthy and rather boring side quests. Now, Nothing to ponder on. The answer is unsatisfying in every defintion of the word and all that build up I'm hearing every 5 seconds about it being unknowable is now just annoying because I, sadly, know perfectly well their motivations for such nonsense.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Then reveal them as self-important windbags. Their greatest weapon is the terror they inspire, that sense of incomprehensibility. Strip them of it.

Have you seen The Avengers (Marvel, I mean)?

Loki is the main villain, and he's constantly making speeches about how people are nothing, and should be subservient to him. Finally there is a scene at the end where he is making one of those speeches and the Hulk just beats the everliving crap out of him.

People love that scene.

Basically, after fighting the Reapers for three games, people want to grab them and beat the **** out of them. And they can't (except maybe a little in destroy, which is why people choose it).

One can see demystifying the Reapers as a sort of... intellectual beating, but that is too high concept (except maybe for Ieldra ).

What is interesting is that Loki is the villain, but people also really like him. And, after the beating, he is almost like one of the family again. (Partly this is a bit of a wall-breaking moment, I think, because Hiddleston *is* part of the family in the sense that he is part of the main cast, and they all get along. Also Loki is Thor's brother.) So, after the beating, he says: "If it's all the same to you, I'd like that drink now." (Tony Stark having previously offered him a drink prior to the big showdown.)

In other words, he has played his role as antagonist to the end, now everyone can get along (hero/villain synthesis).

And he isn't dead or anything, in fact, he will appear in future movies, and probably not as the main villain. So, people are willing to understand, but they want to be able to administer the beatdown first.

Modifié par flemm, 03 août 2012 - 01:29 .

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...
Awesome:wizard:

I love how, in this scene, Miranda seems to know some crazy **** is about to go down

Yeah, that definitely looks like an enigmatic smile.

"Be careful."
"I promise. And you too, Shepard."

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

Then reveal them as self-important windbags. Their greatest weapon is the terror they inspire, that sense of incomprehensibility. Strip them of it.

Then all you have is the giant machine cuttlefish. Nevermind the fact that just one of them can wipe out an entie fleet on its own, or the fact that there are thousands of them. Without that mystery they'll wither up and die, or no worse, discover that they are the puppet of some space child. All of their billions of years of growth and technology are now suddenly useless.

No, space child is their creation, not vice versa. I don't trust anything the little bastard says so him and his pals can all get blown to hell. 

I like the idea of the reapers forwarding some hidden motive, but alas, I'd prefer if that motive was never revealed. It doesn't need to be. Or if it is, Shepard kills himself out of insanity. You cannot hope to comprehend their motives. That was genuinely terrifying when I first saw it.

[Dr. Doctor]

 @ Flemm

I really like the scene with Loki and the Black Widow  he thinks he's messing with her head by calling her a damsel in distress, then she says "Thanks for telling us you're planning on having the Hulk tear up the Helicarrier" and walks away. The look on his face after that scene is is priceless. 

As for Leviathan, Bioware has confirmed that playing through the DLC will change the ending. Considering that the DLC is focused on learning the backstory of the Reapers I could see this happening:

Catalyst: I am the Catalyst!

Shepard: That's nice. Let me guess your going to go into a rant about how synthetics and orgainics can't get along and how the Reapers are your solution.

Catalyst: W-What?

Shepard: Of course you're nothing more than an AI aren't you? You couldn't figure out how to do your job so you just decided to keep the status quo. Some incomrehesible intelligence you turned out to be.

Catalyst: I am beyond your comprehension! Really! 
 
Shepard: Sure you are kid. So are you going to walk me through what each of these beams do or what? My girlfriend's kind of waiting for me.

Catalyst: (sighs) Fine...

[fiendishchicken]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I want the Reapers thoroughly demystified. They're only machines (well, techno-organic constructs). They are not inherently unknowable gods. Peel back the curtain.

Its the same issue as the endings though. Nothing any writer creates as a motive for the Reapers would be 'incomprehensable' like is constantly hammered in through the entire trilogy and nothing any writer creates will be very satisfying.

That's the issue of labling something as 'incomprehensable' or 'unknowable'.

Perhaps the main difference between us is that when I read "incomprehensible", it's always "not *yet* comprehensible" for me. I see it as a challenge to demystify things. I would have had no problem at all with the  Reapers' purpose as given hadn't it created a narrative inconsistency with what came before. It was suitably epic in scope, and strange enough that as a rule, people didn't *want* to understand it. There are also enough unsolved questions about why the Catalyst would think the cycle is a solution to keep my mind engaged.

And, this slightly leads into why my mind isn't ingaged into ME3.

Thane will always die in the Citadel Coup.
Kai Leng will always get the Prothean VI.
Shepard will always buy the Catalysts' bull****.

What keeps my mind ingaged are things I can think about and ponder on; such as the Reaper's motivations. Its what kept me entertianed during ME1's very lengthy and rather boring side quests. Now, Nothing to ponder on. The answer is unsatisfying in every defintion of the word and all that build up I'm hearing every 5 seconds about it being unknowable is now just annoying because I, sadly, know perfectly well their motivations for such nonsense.

Exactly Lance. Knowing the Reapers true purpose (Bioware's purpose, not mine) just makes them less interesting now. 

The Reapers being truly incomprehensible was great. There was no narrative inconsistency to them being unknowable. And you're right Ieldra, I *don't* want to be able to understand them. It takes away from the awful fear that they generate, instead of them being a tool to serve a cycle that is completely pointless if you know how to use diplomacy and logic.

And yes there are unsolved questions to glowboy, namely; what retarded bunch of beings decided that organics and synthetics were always going to hate each other, or why the hell did bioware spend 22 months writing about the damn tech singularity that completely goes against the theme of Mass Effect, and why the hell do they actually think it's a good idea? Or why the hell am I even at that point of a damn final choice in this trilogy of choices that should have all lead up to an ending based on how I played the trilogy instead of how many war assets I collected just to get the RBG choice? Or why the hell does Bioware not want ME2 to exist anymore? Why the hell does Bioware not want Miranda in the game more? Why the hell didn't Mass Effect 3 have a full development cycle?

Good questions that I still don't have legitimate answers for.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 03 août 2012 - 02:22 .