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[Taboo]

My Shepard doesn't believe it's ethical to interfere past stopping the opposing force.

The only thing that accomplishes this is Destroy.

The Reapers are still there, technically. It's more than plausible that the organic material can be harvested, as it only targets Synthetic components.

I'm sure Miranda could help a great deal with that.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 03 août 2012 - 07:14 .

[MisterJB]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Some things can't be learned and shouldn't be learned.

I disagree with both of these statements.
Everything can be learned and everything should be learned.

something that is unfathomable to us, just as say the geth collective is unknowable to us, or just as we are unknowable to the geth.

Not anymore if you pick Synthesis.

And the only observable traits the reapers have ever promoted is that they wish to destroy us or keep us alive long enough so that we become their equivalent of sperm. I don't see the Reapers as mindless monsters, I see them as terrifying, calculating intelligences that want us dead for the purpose of imposing their sense of order on the universe.

During the FCW, the only observable trait the turians ever promoted was destruction. And they were just as alien back then as the Reapers are now.
Should we judge all of their culture based on actions perfomed during a war?

They aren't taking half-measures with us, why should we. They *NEED* to be eradicated from this universe.

I find this need to destroy sentients that have existed for billions of years and have acess to knowledge and bore witness to cosmic events and cultures that we can't yet grasp to be incomprehesible.

CrutchCricket wrote...
Man can desire all he wants. There are some things he will never know, can never know.

And Shepard can claim equality all he wants. It won't make it true.

I wholly disagree. Give us enough time and resources and watch us accomplish everything.
Shepard has done the impossible before.

[Td1984]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Los Angeles is a sink or swim city, you either adapt or you get swallowed. What I meant by acting was doing things she wasn't used to. It's become more than evident to me why she's popular and it also explains why she wants to try new things, even Dexter, to break out of that mold.

I refer back to the lyric from Hotel California.

"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave."

I was born in Los Angeles... Starting to look like I might die there too.

Even though I'm in Chicago right now.

I was born in Loma Linda. I want to move back to Southern California.

[MisterJB]

fiendishchicken wrote...
The only things that should exist of the Reapers is their hulking corpses. Anything less is an insult to everyone the Reapers killed. 

Everyone they killed don't care if they are insulted or not. They are dead and killing the Reapers won't bring them back.
My Shepard will not sacrifice knowledge and technological advancements on the altar of justice.

[Taboo]

All of that could technically be achieved from cloning the poor bastards who were Harvested. They have this ability.

There is no reason to change the galaxy and ALL life based solely upon your opinion. All beings have the right to choose independently how they wish to progress.

Given enough time and resources you cannot achieve everything. One plus one will always be two.

It isn't about what you want and it never will be. People don't like being told what to do or being changed. Miranda is evidence of this.

[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Some things can't be learned and shouldn't be learned.

I don't think there is any attitude adopted by humans I hate as much as this. Possibly some things can't be learned as long as we're human and not-ascended, but the idea that some things shouldn't be learned it utterly abhorrent to me.

I don't see the Reapers as mindless monsters, I see them as terrifying, calculating intelligences that want us dead for the purpose of imposing their sense of order on the universe.

Yes....and if we can change their attitude instead of destroying them, why shouldn't we?

They aren't taking half-measures with us, why should we. They *NEED* to be eradicated from this universe.

I understand why people see things that way. Understand, in turn, that I don't, and that this is a perfectly valid attitude as well.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 août 2012 - 07:43 .

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I understand why people see things that way. Understand, in turn, that I don't, and that this is a perfectly valid attitude as well.

No, you're wrong and stupid!!

That was a joke.  I actually agree, we each have our own game, and we each get to pick our endings, and that's perfectly fine.  I'm actually more annoyed when people attack other endings via strawman, either calling destroy "genocide" (please somebody look that word up someday), or talking about how synthesis creates demon babies that are half robot and can't age, or whatever.

Play your ending and enjoy it.

Unless you kill Ashley/Miranda, then you are a bad, bad person and I hate you.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think you could make a compelling case for Miranda choosing either Synthesis or Destroy. Destroy is ends-justify-the-means: Miranda the operative. Synthesis is the strange new world: Miranda the scientist.

Absolutely. Which is probably why my maleSheps usually choose Synthesis or Destroy, LOL. Usually one of the main reasons they like Miranda is because they think like her to some degree.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
The only things that should exist of the Reapers is their hulking corpses. Anything less is an insult to everyone the Reapers killed. 

Everyone they killed don't care if they are insulted or not. They are dead and killing the Reapers won't bring them back.
My Shepard will not sacrifice knowledge and technological advancements on the altar of justice.

That's just the thing. Synthesis isn't JUST about advancement. It's about making things similar biologically to allow for an increased ability to compete with Synthetics. This will prevent you from mistrusting them. There are no more Organics. The Catalyst fears Organics attacking Synthetics, not the other way around.

If anything, you've side stepped the issue, changed every living thing for all time and decided how they should progress.

It isn't about justice. It's about solving the issue is the manner you see most ethical. You believe that changing everyone living thing is acceptable because YOU believe that there are things people should not strive for.

The people who pick Destroy do so because it solves the issue and doesn't do much past that. It to is driven by a desire, but a common one, which is why it's more popular than the others. That doesn't make it right though.

I still haven't figured out if Synthesis is driven by the fear of an existential threat or a desire to mold the galaxy as you see fit. That's what upsets people. You do not speak for all life. The animosity that follows Synthesis should be evidence enough of why it's a bad idea. It's in the wrong story.

[lillitheris]

Egads.

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
Some things can't be learned and shouldn't be learned.

I disagree with both of these statements.
Everything can be learned and everything should be learned.

something that is unfathomable to us, just as say the geth collective is unknowable to us, or just as we are unknowable to the geth.

Not anymore if you pick Synthesis.

And the only observable traits the reapers have ever promoted is that they wish to destroy us or keep us alive long enough so that we become their equivalent of sperm. I don't see the Reapers as mindless monsters, I see them as terrifying, calculating intelligences that want us dead for the purpose of imposing their sense of order on the universe.

During the FCW, the only observable trait the turians ever promoted was destruction. And they were just as alien back then as the Reapers are now.
Should we judge all of their culture based on actions perfomed during a war?

They aren't taking half-measures with us, why should we. They *NEED* to be eradicated from this universe.

I find this need to destroy sentients that have existed for billions of years and have acess to knowledge and bore witness to cosmic events and cultures that we can't yet grasp to be incomprehesible.

CrutchCricket wrote...
Man can desire all he wants. There are some things he will never know, can never know.

And Shepard can claim equality all he wants. It won't make it true.

I wholly disagree. Give us enough time and resources and watch us accomplish everything.
Shepard has done the impossible before.

To the first debate; This is a fundamental difference of opinion. There is no wrong answer. However I believe it is confidence born from the ignorance of man's limited perspective. Whether you agree or not, there are things about the cosmos and the universe that we don't understand and will never understand. To this day, we still don't understand or know the fundamental cause of gravity. We can only guess as to how consciousness truly works. But we can yearn to understand, and I agree with that. But hoping to understand something and working towards something does not mean we will ever understand.

I don't believe the catalyst. I don't think synthesis achievs perfection or makes synthetics understand. And I certainly don't believe organics or synthetics are ready for synthesis (if ever). It's not some miracle choice that magically makes everything golden, I mean green, but it takes away the feeling of something alien in the universe. And how can we hope to understand an alien concept of life when we barely understand our own? And the Reapers are still alive in this ending. That cannot be allowed. I admit my argument against synthesis is flawed. I have not really thought it out as much as many others have. Mainly because I find the whole concept to be a ridiculous attempt by bioware to come off as intelligent.

Quite frankly, yes we should. If ALL of the Reapers are devoted to wiping out our civilizations, and boast of imposing order on the chaos of life, then that would infer that the Reapers culture is based entirely on wiping out life as it represents the chaos that opposes their order. 

 The Reapers are not the species that they have harvested. They are Reapers, with a singular goal of exterminating or harvesting all life in the galaxy. What good is that knowledge of events to us? The asari have seen many events too in their long lives. As have the krogan and the turians, and the salarians and the quarians.
What exactly is your point?

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 03 août 2012 - 07:54 .

[fiendishchicken]

Td1984 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Los Angeles is a sink or swim city, you either adapt or you get swallowed. What I meant by acting was doing things she wasn't used to. It's become more than evident to me why she's popular and it also explains why she wants to try new things, even Dexter, to break out of that mold.

I refer back to the lyric from Hotel California.

"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave."

I was born in Los Angeles... Starting to look like I might die there too.

Even though I'm in Chicago right now.

I was born in Loma Linda. I want to move back to Southern California.

Born in Torrance, and raised in Redondo Beach.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 03 août 2012 - 07:54 .

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Egads.

And I'm soaking it ALLLLLL up.

And it's NOT my fault this time.

Chaos Reigns.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 03 août 2012 - 07:57 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
Some things can't be learned and shouldn't be learned.

I don't think there is any attitude adopted by humans I hate as much as this. Possibly some things can't be learned as long as we're human and not-ascended, but the idea that some things shouldn't be learned it utterly abhorrent to me.

I don't see the Reapers as mindless monsters, I see them as terrifying, calculating intelligences that want us dead for the purpose of imposing their sense of order on the universe.

Yes....and if we can change their attitude instead of destroying them, why shouldn't we?

They aren't taking half-measures with us, why should we. They *NEED* to be eradicated from this universe.

I understand why people see things that way. Understand, in turn, that I don't, and that this is a perfectly valid attitude as well.

"Just as there are penalties for violations of civil law, so there are penalties for violations of moral law, including a darkening of the conscience that leads to more even egregious moral violations. The precept that one reaps what he sows is nowhere more evidence… than in those who try to outrun moral law and destroy themselves in the process." - Thomas Hobbes

That is my motivation for believing that somethings shouldn't be learned. The moral and ethical sacrifice for such knowledge is unacceptable. We would lose our humanity.

No we shouldn't. Changing their attitude would be forcefully imposing a different order on them. As much as I hate to admit it, forcing the reapers to see or understand a different view is ethically wrong. I can't make that choice. They must do so on their own. I can however destroy and annihilate them with out worry of conscientious consequence because they are capable of fighting and defending themselves. Forcing one to change an attitude, a belief, a concept robs them of their capacity to freewill. To take away their freewill and forcibly change their attitude would make me no better than the Reapers. Destroying them is the only means to live for the hope of the future and making the influence of the Reapers leave us so that we can expand at our own rate. 

I do understand that. Do you?

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 03 août 2012 - 08:15 .

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Chaos Reigns.

Such a terrible film...

Hey, I just did the suicide mission last night.  Does anyone know how Miranda reacts if you keep the base?  Like, she resigns if you destroy it, is still still cool with cerberus if you keep it?

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Chaos Reigns.

Such a terrible film...

Hey, I just did the suicide mission last night.  Does anyone know how Miranda reacts if you keep the base?  Like, she resigns if you destroy it, is still still cool with cerberus if you keep it?

His new film is a hardcore porno with Willem Dafoe.

WHY would you keep the base?

I think it's simply more lolworthy to blow it up.

Your teammates agree with you regardless I think.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 03 août 2012 - 08:28 .

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Chaos Reigns.

Such a terrible film...

Hey, I just did the suicide mission last night.  Does anyone know how Miranda reacts if you keep the base?  Like, she resigns if you destroy it, is still still cool with cerberus if you keep it?

It's not exactly clear. She questions TIM's goals and hopes what's in the base is worth it. 

[flemm]

krukow wrote...
Hey, I just did the suicide mission last night.  Does anyone know how Miranda reacts if you keep the base?  Like, she resigns if you destroy it, is still still cool with cerberus if you keep it?

She doesn't resign. She says something like "I hope it was the right decision and that Cerberus can gain something useful from it." if you talk to her about it afterward. Basically she seems a little doubtful.

'd

Modifié par flemm, 03 août 2012 - 08:31 .

[krukow]

I've never kept the base. Hence my curiosity.

Though if keeping the base meant keeping Miranda on Cerberus' good side, and then she didn't have to run from their assassins, she could totally join, right?

No? Because the plot says so? Okay

[Taboo]

What is she holding on her back? I know she suddenly gains the ability to use Assault Rifles in cutscenes but I've never seen them use something other than the default. That looks like a Collector Assault Rifle or Collector Beam.

I've never really had a use for the former, but the latter was great. Looking forward to the Cerberus Harrier in the new weapons pack regardless.

And we still need more legitimate Cerberus content.

[jtav]

Curiously my Paragons keep the base and my Renegade destroys it. Mostly because my Renegades are more emotion driven (and one has a big unrequited crush on Miranda and did it because she told her to)

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

What is she holding on her back? I know she suddenly gains the ability to use Assault Rifles in cutscenes but I've never seen them use something other than the default. That looks like a Collector Assault Rifle or Collector Beam.

I can't really recall where I picked up that screen, tbh. It's not originally one of mine. Looks like the particle beam. Maybe something from a mod.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...
I've never kept the base. Hence my curiosity.

Though if keeping the base meant keeping Miranda on Cerberus' good side, and then she didn't have to run from their assassins, she could totally join, right?

No? Because the plot says so? Okay

From the conversation in ME3, I gather that TIM tried to kill Miranda to "contain the situation", but Shepard's answer "He doesn't take rejection well" suggests it was Miranda's initiative to leave. So they basically made her leave off-screen after having retconned her to be Cerberus 2IC...

This makes sense......exactly how?

[MisterJB]

fiendishchicken wrote...
To the first debate; This is a fundamental difference of opinion. There is no wrong answer. However I believe it is confidence born from the ignorance of man's limited perspective. Whether you agree or not, there are things about the cosmos and the universe that we don't understand and will never understand. To this day, we still don't understand or know the fundamental cause of gravity. We can only guess as to how consciousness truly works. But we can yearn to understand, and I agree with that. But hoping to understand something and working towards something does not mean we will ever understand.

The fact that we don't understand something now, doesn't mean we never will.
I believe human beings can understand everything, given enough time and resources. And that includes the Reapers.

I don't believe the catalyst. I don't think synthesis achievs perfection or makes synthetics understand. And I certainly don't believe organics or synthetics are ready for synthesis (if ever). It's not some miracle choice that magically makes everything golden, I mean green, but it takes away the feeling of something alien in the universe. And how can we hope to understand an alien concept of life when we barely understand our own? And the Reapers are still alive in this ending. That cannot be allowed. I admit my argument against synthesis is flawed. I have not really thought it out as much as many others have. Mainly because I find the whole concept to be a ridiculous attempt by bioware to come off as intelligent.

Then you are working out of a preconception.
You have decided Syntesis is just a ridiculous attempt to appear intelligent and have yet to truly try to understand what it is. I advise you to read Ieldra's thread where there is an informative compilation of information regarding Synthesis as well as debates that will explain it better than I could.

Quite frankly, yes we should. If ALL of the Reapers are devoted to wiping out our civilizations, and boast of imposing order on the chaos of life, then that would infer that the Reapers culture is based entirely on wiping out life as it represents the chaos that opposes their order. 

You must be willing to look at the situation from a different point of view. I could easily make the claim that the only reason our civilization exists in the first place is because of the Reapers.
Consider the Prothean Empire. Had they survived, do you believe humanity could compete with them? Or how about the countless space faring species that existed before them? Do you think they wouldn't have found Earth eventually, stripped it of resources? They would have destroyed our species long before we even evolved.
Now that we are here, we must fight for our survival. But I can look at the Reaper and see they had a positive benefit in the galaxy.

 The Reapers are not the species that they have harvested. They are Reapers, with a singular goal of exterminating or harvesting all life in the galaxy. What good is that knowledge of events to us? The asari have seen many events too in their long lives. As have the krogan and the turians, and the salarians and the quarians.
What exactly is your point?

Reapers are unique, amazing, incomparable forms of life that have lived for billions of years with acess to technology and knowledge that could push our society to a Golden Age. We have seen it used for military purposes and that has created in us a distate for it but Husk technology, for instance, could be used to greatly enhance the physical capabilities of organics. The ingenuity that created the Citadel could make our cities impervious to natural disasters. Etc, etc, etc.
Destroying the Reapers should be an absolute last resort.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 août 2012 - 09:07 .

[jtav]

You could fix her role in five minutes. After Leng is defeated, instead of the Renegade interrupt, Miranda shoots him in the back. "Sorry I'm late." Says something about Cerberus. Dramatic kiss with romanced Shep. Leave.