82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Vertigo_1]

Taboo-XX wrote...
They mention using red sand to lower inhibitions. I believe that was Kai Lengs idea. I have a hard time believing that the Kai Leng I saw in ME3 was capable of that. Or of killing Miranda.

But I would have liked to have had dialouge with Henry about the clones, or at least some mention of them. On that we can agree.

Drew Karpyshyn wrote that part in the book, vs Mac Walters who wrote him in ME3

There wasn't enough dialog with Henry for sure, he felt like some random guy at the end of a mission, meh.  Miranda being involved in that dialog (that you mentioned) *should* have been priority for the writers (in addition to a proper confrontation), more than what that garbage in game was.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 04 août 2012 - 04:47 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
I feel like the concept of the encounter should have been Henry defending himself via his science/research. Controlling some of his creations, or husks, maybe using indoctrination. Would have been fitting imo.

He'd have to be science-ing pretty damn fast and hard to stop Miranda and Shepard;)

Though I would also resent it from a gameplay perspective if Lawson just stood there and sent failed clones and husks at you. It didn't work for the Force Unleashed 2, it won't work here.

But yes this should've been a battle of intellects, of masterminds if you will. And not just of science. Cunning, deceit and psychological tormets should've been the weapons of choice. Not that he should've been a weakling. All that genetic tampering, you have to figure he's improved himself as well. But his physical attacks should be the least of our worries.

About the failed clones: I think that's a good idea. I've always thought there's an Alien Resurrection type lab where the failed ones go to die. But it wouldn't be at Sanctuary. That's a Cerberus facility used for the sole purpose of husk experiments. If you wanted to include the failed clones you'd have to stretch the Lawson fight into two encounters, where he escapes from Sanctuary (possibly with Oriana) and you have to track him down to his lair. I don't know if it'd fit within the larger ME3 story but damn would it be interesting.

[Taboo]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
They mention using red sand to lower inhibitions. I believe that was Kai Lengs idea. I have a hard time believing that the Kai Leng I saw in ME3 was capable of that. Or of killing Miranda.

But I would have liked to have had dialouge with Henry about the clones, or at least some mention of them. On that we can agree.

Drew Karpyshyn wrote that part in the book, vs Mac Walters who wrote him in ME3

There wasn't enough dialog with Henry for sure, he felt like some random guy at the end of a mission, meh.  Miranda being involved in that dialog (that you mentioned) *should* have been priority for the writers (in addition to a proper confrontation), more than what that garbage in game was.

He would have been a fascinating man to talk to. I'd love to pick his brain, at least my Shepard would have. But given the context of the scene, there wasn't really much time for talking. Something had to be done and it was.

A DLC were Miranda goes back to that lab would be interesting, just to see some old audio/videos logs. Although that's not really feasible. It would have been fascinating.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yes this should've been a battle of intellects, of masterminds if you will. And not just of science. Cunning, deceit and psychological tormets should've been the weapons of choice. Not that he should've been a weakling. All that genetic tampering, you have to figure he's improved himself as well. But his physical attacks should be the least of our worries.

I fully agree, but do think there's any writer on the ME3 team who could write such a thing? I have my doubts. They're good at triggering emotions, but have you *ever* seen an intellectual exchange worth the term? In any Mass Effect game? 

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yes this should've been a battle of intellects, of masterminds if you will. And not just of science. Cunning, deceit and psychological tormets should've been the weapons of choice. Not that he should've been a weakling. All that genetic tampering, you have to figure he's improved himself as well. But his physical attacks should be the least of our worries.

I fully agree, but do think there's any writer on the ME3 team who could write such a thing? I have my doubts. They're good at triggering emotions, but have you *ever* seen an intellectual exchange worth the term? In any Mass Effect game? 

At the end of the day though he's just a human being, flawed like the rest of us. I truly doubt he would have anything of true worth to say, at least in defense of his position.

Miranda isn't one to exaggerate, I'm more than certain than everythign she says is true.

Can you imagine another conversation with another being trying to justify his actions? Knowing Bioware Henry would give a speech in the footsteps of the Catalyst's fire metaphor. That would have been even worse.

"I am Henry Lawson, you cannot stop me because I am great."  

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 août 2012 - 06:47 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I fully agree, but do think there's any writer on the ME3 team who could write such a thing? I have my doubts. They're good at triggering emotions, but have you *ever* seen an intellectual exchange worth the term? In any Mass Effect game? 

Well, define "worthy of the term." I don't really expect the game to be focused on intellectual debate. But interesting ideas can be presented through a mixture of dialogue and action (and imagery, of course, and other things). I think ME2 did that in a lot of places. ME3 does on occasion, mostly in the Genophage Arc.

At the end of the day, one unfortunate thing is that Miranda's content was obviously under the control of the more ideologically conservative part of the dev team this time around, and therefore in the part of the game that is not interested in being intellectually stimulating.

But that's also one reason not to get too down about the problems with it (because that is letting that vision or interpretation take over).

Modifié par flemm, 04 août 2012 - 07:09 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

At the end of the day, one unfortunate thing is that Miranda's content was obviously under the control of the more ideologically conservative part of the dev team this time around, and in the part of the game that is not interested in being intellectually stimulating.

Quoted for truth.

The one issue I raise is that parts of the game are just plain unpleasent. It functions purely on emotiona output and rejects any type of intellectual participation from the audience.

A great example of this is the forced emotion with the child in the beginning. No build up, no real connection. It's tacked on emotion for the sake of symbolism.

THAT really rustles my jimmies.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 août 2012 - 07:09 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Taboo-XX wrote...

flemm wrote...

At the end of the day, one unfortunate thing is that Miranda's content was obviously under the control of the more ideologically conservative part of the dev team this time around, and in the part of the game that is not interested in being intellectually stimulating.

Quoted for truth.

The one issue I raise is that parts of the game are just plain unpleasent. It functions purely on emotiona output and rejects any type of intellectual participation from the audience.

A great example of this is the forced emotion with the child in the beginning. No build up, no real connection. It's tacked on emotion for the sake of symbolism.

THAT really rustles my jimmies.

Forced symbolism is always really bad. The forced religious symbolism in the endings really made me sick. It just shows a lack of ideas.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes because the last thing the game needed was THIS in a tube. I actually thought about this and seeing a bloated fleshy version of Miranda strapped nude to a table asking me to kill her. We don't need that.

Of course we did. Sanctuary was supposed to be the most morally repulsive, unforgivable, shocking, monstruous place in the entire galaxy. The worst war crime in the history of Mass Effect.
Husks just are not remarkable or scary enough after having killed thousands of them these past years.

[jtav]

The irony is that I'm an ideological conservative and I'm offended by the way Miranda was handled. Any interest in how a competent one would handle this, assuming I were inclined to "preach?"

[MisterJB]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I wonder if that's what the unique enemy they had in the first script would have looked like a of failed clones (don't remember the name of it..."Pyraih"? or something)

The Pariah are three biotic women with Reaper technology merging them together, there is a concept of it on the Artbook.
I would have loved if she had been a boss in Sanctuary. If you did everything right, the Pariah is composed of three Miranda clones.
If not, Miranda and Oriana herself or maybe just Oriana.

[srjepsen]

I'm pretty sure this has been touched on, but the Kai Leng of the novel is so much better, Drew Karpyshyn should've wrote ME3, shame he didn't, and regarding the ending, I still think it's all a dream, even with EC, there's still too much evidence, especially with the refusal ending, single greatest piece right there....SO BE IT!

[jtav]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes because the last thing the game needed was THIS in a tube. I actually thought about this and seeing a bloated fleshy version of Miranda strapped nude to a table asking me to kill her. We don't need that.

Of course we did. Sanctuary was supposed to be the most morally repulsive, unforgivable, shocking, monstruous place in the entire galaxy. The worst war crime in the history of Mass Effect.
Husks just are not remarkable or scary enough after having killed thousands of them these past years.

Agreed. Sanctuary just isn't scary or repulsive enough. It's also dull. We should have shut down an active camp. The thing feels pointless. Leak was much better.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

The irony is that I'm an ideological conservative and I'm offended by the way Miranda was handled. Any interest in how a competent one would handle this, assuming I were inclined to "preach?"

I probably shouldn't have said "therefore." More like: "and *also* not interested in being intellectually stimulating."

But anyway, sure

Modifié par flemm, 04 août 2012 - 07:33 .

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes because the last thing the game needed was THIS in a tube. I actually thought about this and seeing a bloated fleshy version of Miranda strapped nude to a table asking me to kill her. We don't need that.

Of course we did. Sanctuary was supposed to be the most morally repulsive, unforgivable, shocking, monstruous place in the entire galaxy. The worst war crime in the history of Mass Effect.
Husks just are not remarkable or scary enough after having killed thousands of them these past years.

Agreed. Sanctuary just isn't scary or repulsive enough. It's also dull. We should have shut down an active camp. The thing feels pointless. Leak was much better.

There is zero reason for the clones to be there. At all. Those failed clones were disposed of. Miranda mentions this.

The place is monstrous, one might easily make a comparison to a certain event in Earth's history where large groups of people were lead in with a false sense of security and then experimented on and killed.

I can assure you that visiting said places in real life is also terrible.

You do realize that they can't show violence in that context against children right?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
There is zero reason for the clones to be there. At all. Those failed clones were disposed of. Miranda mentions this.

The place is monstrous, one might easily make a comparison to a certain event in Earth's history where large groups of people were lead in with a false sense of security and then experimented on and killed.

I can assure you that visiting said places in real life is also terrible.

You do realize that they can't show violence in that context against children right?

Well, there is no doubt a limit as to what they can and should show. I'm also not sure any clones needed to be there because that is not what Henry is working on there. He is working on a way to control the Reapers.

On the other hand, I agree with the general sentiment that the location should have generated a greater sense of horror (albeit not necessarily by just showing horrible stuff, there are other ways to do this), and that the mission should have been more eventful overall.

Modifié par flemm, 04 août 2012 - 07:58 .

[jtav]

Let the infertility stand. Have Miranda taunt Henry with the knowledge that his precious dynasty was a dead end and his only legacy is a heap of corpses. He'll be held up as a monster and she'll be a hero. Modify the chip convo so that her work was used without her knowledge or consent as a foundation for integration and her guilt is over something stronger than mere temptation to do evil. Remove Leng and Miranda's possible death from Sanctuary and move it to Cronos. Sanctuary is just about Miranda's personal demons and Oriana. Cronos is about her coming to terms with her time as operative. Having the love of her family spurs her to greater accomplishment. It is not sufficient in itself. She confronts TIM and denounces him. Leng fight. Miranda can sacrifice herself here, or she can live. If Miranda survives, she and what's left of Cerberus are working under Hackett. Cerberus is now humanity's STG in truth and Miranda is integrated into the larger community.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

Let the infertility stand. Have Miranda taunt Henry with the knowledge that his precious dynasty was a dead end and his only legacy is a heap of corpses. He'll be held up as a monster and she'll be a hero. Modify the chip convo so that her work was used without her knowledge or consent as a foundation for integration and her guilt is over something stronger than mere temptation to do evil. Remove Leng and Miranda's possible death from Sanctuary and move it to Cronos. Sanctuary is just about Miranda's personal demons and Oriana. Cronos is about her coming to terms with her time as operative. Having the love of her family spurs her to greater accomplishment. It is not sufficient in itself. She confronts TIM and denounces him. Leng fight. Miranda can sacrifice herself here, or she can live. If Miranda survives, she and what's left of Cerberus are working under Hackett. Cerberus is now humanity's STG in truth and Miranda is integrated into the larger community.

Well i'd prefer Miranda & Cerberus to stay independent of Hackett and co but the concept seems better otherwise. Though i still think the early game Miranda stuff needs to be non Oriana focused with Miranda focused on the way TIM has twisted Cerberus, with the focus shifting to Oriana and her father later.

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
There is zero reason for the clones to be there. At all. Those failed clones were disposed of. Miranda mentions this.

The place is monstrous, one might easily make a comparison to a certain event in Earth's history where large groups of people were lead in with a false sense of security and then experimented on and killed.

I can assure you that visiting said places in real life is also terrible.

You do realize that they can't show violence in that context against children right?

Well, there is no doubt a limit as to what they can and should show. I'm also not sure any clones needed to be there because that is not what Henry is working on there. He is working on a way to control the Reapers.

On the other hand, I agree with the general sentiment that the location should have generated a greater sense of horror (albeit not necessarily by just showing horrible stuff, there are other ways to do this), and that the mission should have been more eventful overall.

Maybe because I've seen firsthand things that you would NEVER see in the media (news or entertainment), I feel as though they should portray the violence and horror of Sanctuary. And yes, the greater sense of horror should have been generated, as someone said in a previous post, the game tells you instead of showing you what happens. 

[Taboo]

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

If we're picking names from ancient beasts why not steal one from Norse Mythology?

Fenrir? The Fenris Wolf?



I jest of course, but it does sort of make me chuckle at how much is taken from Greek Mythology.

[flemm]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Maybe because I've seen firsthand things that you would NEVER see in the media (news or entertainment), I feel as though they should portray the violence and horror of Sanctuary. And yes, the greater sense of horror should have been generated, as someone said in a previous post, the game tells you instead of showing you what happens. 

Well, I agree that it should be portrayed. But... I think an argument can be made for a somewhat... stylized approach, I guess. Showing some stuff, suggesting other things. Almost like (good) horror movies often do.

As is, the place just doesn't *feel* terrible, though we know it is.


As for Cerberus, well, Cerberus is an idea, and not so easily destroyed. Also it is supposed to be covert.  I'm not sure its reputation really matters all that much, since it never really had a good one.

Having said that, I'm not attached to the name or even to the organisation. Humanity's STG has always been my thing. But that's just a personal favorite idea.

Modifié par flemm, 04 août 2012 - 08:19 .

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

I don't think the public or the alliance needs to know about what Shepard and Miranda are doing professionally. They are both strong believers in Pre-ME3 Cerberus (although Shepard doesn't believe in interspecies competition since he wants them to work together), and both are willing to use less-than-digestible methods to promote the cause of humanity. I see a rebirth of Cerberus through Phoenix (much like the Project Phoenix seen in in MP)

[jtav]

I think the the Synthesis/non-romance Destroy slide is pretty good. Miranda is working with the Alliance, separate and distinct from them, and doing something constructive. Integrated into the community without the unpleasant association of a uniform.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

I think the the Synthesis/non-romance Destroy slide is pretty good. Miranda is working with the Alliance, separate and distinct from them, and doing something constructive. Integrated into the community without the unpleasant association of a uniform.

As a matter of taste, I prefer the stargazing scene. It's very... romanced Miranda. That said don't get hung up to much on it. It's eminently possible the non-romance scene happened about an hour before she started looking at the stars.

[Taboo]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

I don't think the public or the alliance needs to know about what Shepard and Miranda are doing professionally. They are both strong believers in Pre-ME3 Cerberus (although Shepard doesn't believe in interspecies competition since he wants them to work together), and both are willing to use less-than-digestible methods to promote the cause of humanity. I see a rebirth of Cerberus through Phoenix (much like the Project Phoenix seen in in MP)

STOP STEALING THOUGHTS FROM MY HEAD.

Yes, much like the Phoenix, a new organization can arise from the ashes like the Phoenix. As can the galaxy.Except that Phoenix would have to represent ALL beings in that case.

Having an organization meant to not only represent humanity but it's new place in the galaxy is a nice idea. I would have my Shepard helping organize getting things stabilized with the many, many refugees. Miranda can help with organizing the physical building.

We need the "I support The Phoenix banners."