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[jtav]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

I don't think the public or the alliance needs to know about what Shepard and Miranda are doing professionally. They are both strong believers in Pre-ME3 Cerberus (although Shepard doesn't believe in interspecies competition since he wants them to work together), and both are willing to use less-than-digestible methods to promote the cause of humanity. I see a rebirth of Cerberus through Phoenix (much like the Project Phoenix seen in in MP)

As a matter of fact, I don't like the stargazing slide, but that's not the point. The other slide suggests something about how Miranda might fit into the new order and how she might work with the Alliance. Only point I was maing.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

I don't think the public or the alliance needs to know about what Shepard and Miranda are doing professionally. They are both strong believers in Pre-ME3 Cerberus (although Shepard doesn't believe in interspecies competition since he wants them to work together), and both are willing to use less-than-digestible methods to promote the cause of humanity. I see a rebirth of Cerberus through Phoenix (much like the Project Phoenix seen in in MP)

STOP STEALING THOUGHTS FROM MY HEAD.

Great minds think alike 

[Taboo]

I'd imagine the Alliance will want to use Shepard as some form of propaganda when this is over.

No thanks. One Hackett shows up and he's debriefed my Shepard is done.

The same goes for the Council. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

Also, jtav the slide is there for authorial intent only, meant to show that Miranda is alive and is still interested in Shepard. That's WHY it's that way.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

I don't think the public or the alliance needs to know about what Shepard and Miranda are doing professionally. They are both strong believers in Pre-ME3 Cerberus (although Shepard doesn't believe in interspecies competition since he wants them to work together), and both are willing to use less-than-digestible methods to promote the cause of humanity. I see a rebirth of Cerberus through Phoenix (much like the Project Phoenix seen in in MP)

As a matter of fact, I don't like the stargazing slide, but that's not the point. The other slide suggests something about how Miranda might fit into the new order and how she might work with the Alliance. Only point I was maing.

Well, lucky enough for me, I get both slides in my playthrough (never get a Jack slide though).

[flemm]

Well, also, one reason I like Miranda is because she is from a world where not everything is good/evil all the time. She is from the world of ME2.

We tend to suggest ideas that make her more clearly a "good guy" these days because we want to see more of her and sense that the more gray version of the character isn't really compatible with what they were trying to do in this game for the most part.

But if the writers can find a way for Miranda to retain a bit of an edge, or even a lot of one, then that would be my preference. In all honesty, I think the "space opera" parts of this game are clearly not the best parts, and with how things have gone, I hope the team moves away from that.

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd imagine the Alliance will want to use Shepard as some form of propaganda when this is over.

No thanks. One Hackett shows up and he's debriefed my Shepard is done.

The same goes for the Council. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

Also, jtav the slide is there for authorial intent only, meant to show that Miranda is alive and is still interested in Shepard. That's WHY it's that way.

I actually think Shepard's best use would be as a form of propaganda, but for the galactic council.  I know it sounds weird to say, but I could totally see the races fall back to infighting within a couple of years without a strong symbol to unite them. I know they just won some huge war, but people (not humans, but all sentient "people") are stupid, selfish things.  They need something to remind them of what's really important.  I think Shep works best as that symbol.

Plus, let's be honest, any actual work is going to be done by Miranad, shep's just good at shooting stuff.

[wright1978]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd imagine the Alliance will want to use Shepard as some form of propaganda when this is over.

No thanks. One Hackett shows up and he's debriefed my Shepard is done.

The same goes for the Council. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

Also, jtav the slide is there for authorial intent only, meant to show that Miranda is alive and is still interested in Shepard. That's WHY it's that way.

Yes if he/shedead they'll use him/her for propaganda again. Given my Shep survives he'll be leveraging his fame for his own ends. The Alliance and council will bend to his will and probably regret that he didn't die under rubble.

[Taboo]

Shepard is already a symbol. People are going to be all over him regardless. I was referring to being a symbol OUTSIDE of organizations like the Alliance.

The Council is also an issue if they want to control how he can act.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd imagine the Alliance will want to use Shepard as some form of propaganda when this is over.

No thanks. One Hackett shows up and he's debriefed my Shepard is done.

The same goes for the Council. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

Also, jtav the slide is there for authorial intent only, meant to show that Miranda is alive and is still interested in Shepard. That's WHY it's that way.

Have you read "The Fourth Option"? It's by a friend of mine and it details pretty much what you just posted.

It's one of my favorite fics, although it isn't perfect (too much swearing and the dialogue seems a bit odd to me.)

http://www.fanfictio...e_Fourth_Option

Shepard does a VERY good job of ripping apart both the alliance and the council and it is amusing and satisfying to no end.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 04 août 2012 - 08:54 .

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd imagine the Alliance will want to use Shepard as some form of propaganda when this is over.

No thanks. One Hackett shows up and he's debriefed my Shepard is done.

The same goes for the Council. There are far more important things to be worrying about.

Also, jtav the slide is there for authorial intent only, meant to show that Miranda is alive and is still interested in Shepard. That's WHY it's that way.

I actually think Shepard's best use would be as a form of propaganda, but for the galactic council.  I know it sounds weird to say, but I could totally see the races fall back to infighting within a couple of years without a strong symbol to unite them. I know they just won some huge war, but people (not humans, but all sentient "people") are stupid, selfish things.  They need something to remind them of what's really important.  I think Shep works best as that symbol.

Plus, let's be honest, any actual work is going to be done by Miranad, shep's just good at shooting stuff.

My Shepard hates the idea of the council as it stands in the games. All they are is the 4 most powerful species using their power to stay as the 4 most powerful species. He believes in a system of governance around fairness, or all the species getting a fair and equal voice regardless. 

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...I actually think Shepard's best use would be as a form of propaganda, but for the galactic council.  I know it sounds weird to say, but I could totally see the races fall back to infighting within a couple of years without a strong symbol to unite them. I know they just won some huge war, but people (not humans, but all sentient "people") are stupid, selfish things.  They need something to remind them of what's really important.  I think Shep works best as that symbol.

Plus, let's be honest, any actual work is going to be done by Miranad, shep's just good at shooting stuff.

My Shepard hates the idea of the council as it stands in the games. All they are is the 4 most powerful species using their power to stay as the 4 most powerful species. He believes in a system of governance around fairness, or all the species getting a fair and equal voice regardless. 

That's fair,and I could see him working towards that, but again, his best bet would be to function as a symbol and push for these things among the races.  I don't think Shep could be much of a politician (even in ME3, he solved most political problems by shooting something), but he could inspire politicians/races/normal citizens to see beyond themselves for a better future.  Just IMO.

Plus in your head canon, Ash is dead, so your head canon makes me sad

[krukow]

Basically, if you've seen the Dark Knigh Rises, Shepard is to the galaxy as Batman is to Gotham.

[jtav]

Perhaps it's all for the best that Commander Shepard is usually dead. The galaxy will never let him be. If Fate is kind however, Miranda might be seen with a man who looks remarkably like him on some distant planet.

[Taboo]

fiendishchicken wrote...

My Shepard hates the idea of the council as it stands in the games. All they are is the 4 most powerful species using their power to stay as the 4 most powerful species. He believes in a system of governance around fairness, or all the species getting a fair and equal voice regardless. 

This. 

And why allow them to stay that way? They are the voices that caused a lot more chaos than people realize. All the races deserve a voice, not just the four we have now.

If anything, a lot of deaths can be blamed on the Councils ineptitude. 

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Perhaps it's all for the best that Commander Shepard is usually dead. The galaxy will never let him be. If Fate is kind however, Miranda might be seen with a man who looks remarkably like him on some distant planet.

Governments are going to morons anyway.

Why not have a living symbol free of their control who represents EVERYONE?

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...I actually think Shepard's best use would be as a form of propaganda, but for the galactic council.  I know it sounds weird to say, but I could totally see the races fall back to infighting within a couple of years without a strong symbol to unite them. I know they just won some huge war, but people (not humans, but all sentient "people") are stupid, selfish things.  They need something to remind them of what's really important.  I think Shep works best as that symbol.

Plus, let's be honest, any actual work is going to be done by Miranad, shep's just good at shooting stuff.

My Shepard hates the idea of the council as it stands in the games. All they are is the 4 most powerful species using their power to stay as the 4 most powerful species. He believes in a system of governance around fairness, or all the species getting a fair and equal voice regardless. 

That's fair,and I could see him working towards that, but again, his best bet would be to function as a symbol and push for these things among the races.  I don't think Shep could be much of a politician (even in ME3, he solved most political problems by shooting something), but he could inspire politicians/races/normal citizens to see beyond themselves for a better future.  Just IMO.

Plus in your head canon, Ash is dead, so your head canon makes me sad

I'm sorry, but Ashley just strikes me as a conservative pre-judging, angry nutjob who is incapable of understanding the bigger problems of the universe. She can only see the world down the barrel of a gun where her idea's are the only right ideas. I deal with those attitudes enough in my life as is. I don't like her self-righteous attitude at all. 

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

Perhaps it's all for the best that Commander Shepard is usually dead. The galaxy will never let him be. If Fate is kind however, Miranda might be seen with a man who looks remarkably like him on some distant planet.

If he's dead, his symbol is whatever those with power want it to be.

Alive, he can use his status to push for changes he wants to see.

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

jtav wrote...

Perhaps it's all for the best that Commander Shepard is usually dead. The galaxy will never let him be. If Fate is kind however, Miranda might be seen with a man who looks remarkably like him on some distant planet.

If he's dead, his symbol is whatever those with power want it to be.

Alive, he can use his status to push for changes he wants to see.

This.

Being alive and being able to take responsibility is a far better outcome than having people simply believe that the other two options were the only ones.

[LanceSolous13]

CrutchCricket wrote...

flemm wrote...
I feel like the concept of the encounter should have been Henry defending himself via his science/research. Controlling some of his creations, or husks, maybe using indoctrination. Would have been fitting imo.

He'd have to be science-ing pretty damn fast and hard to stop Miranda and Shepard;)

Though I would also resent it from a gameplay perspective if Lawson just stood there and sent failed clones and husks at you. It didn't work for the Force Unleashed 2, it won't work here.

But yes this should've been a battle of intellects, of masterminds if you will. And not just of science. Cunning, deceit and psychological tormets should've been the weapons of choice. Not that he should've been a weakling. All that genetic tampering, you have to figure he's improved himself as well. But his physical attacks should be the least of our worries.

About the failed clones: I think that's a good idea. I've always thought there's an Alien Resurrection type lab where the failed ones go to die. But it wouldn't be at Sanctuary. That's a Cerberus facility used for the sole purpose of husk experiments. If you wanted to include the failed clones you'd have to stretch the Lawson fight into two encounters, where he escapes from Sanctuary (possibly with Oriana) and you have to track him down to his lair. I don't know if it'd fit within the larger ME3 story but damn would it be interesting.

Maybe he somehow uses a drug on Shepard and Miranda and the fight is with them sort of freaking out? It'd certainly need better build up than the game currenty has, but I think it could work in some form.

[LanceSolous13]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
But yes this should've been a battle of intellects, of masterminds if you will. And not just of science. Cunning, deceit and psychological tormets should've been the weapons of choice. Not that he should've been a weakling. All that genetic tampering, you have to figure he's improved himself as well. But his physical attacks should be the least of our worries.

I fully agree, but do think there's any writer on the ME3 team who could write such a thing? I have my doubts. They're good at triggering emotions, but have you *ever* seen an intellectual exchange worth the term? In any Mass Effect game? 

At the end of the day though he's just a human being, flawed like the rest of us. I truly doubt he would have anything of true worth to say, at least in defense of his position.

Miranda isn't one to exaggerate, I'm more than certain than everythign she says is true.

Can you imagine another conversation with another being trying to justify his actions? Knowing Bioware Henry would give a speech in the footsteps of the Catalyst's fire metaphor. That would have been even worse.

"I am Henry Lawson, you cannot stop me because I am great."  

They could have played up Henry to be raving mad, coming unhinged entirely or something. Haven't seen a good case of insanity in awhile now.

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes because the last thing the game needed was THIS in a tube. I actually thought about this and seeing a bloated fleshy version of Miranda strapped nude to a table asking me to kill her. We don't need that.

Of course we did. Sanctuary was supposed to be the most morally repulsive, unforgivable, shocking, monstruous place in the entire galaxy. The worst war crime in the history of Mass Effect.
Husks just are not remarkable or scary enough after having killed thousands of them these past years.

Agreed. Sanctuary just isn't scary or repulsive enough. It's also dull. We should have shut down an active camp. The thing feels pointless. Leak was much better.

What was the difference in the leak?

[LanceSolous13]

jtav wrote...

Let the infertility stand. Have Miranda taunt Henry with the knowledge that his precious dynasty was a dead end and his only legacy is a heap of corpses. He'll be held up as a monster and she'll be a hero. Modify the chip convo so that her work was used without her knowledge or consent as a foundation for integration and her guilt is over something stronger than mere temptation to do evil. Remove Leng and Miranda's possible death from Sanctuary and move it to Cronos. Sanctuary is just about Miranda's personal demons and Oriana. Cronos is about her coming to terms with her time as operative. Having the love of her family spurs her to greater accomplishment. It is not sufficient in itself. She confronts TIM and denounces him. Leng fight. Miranda can sacrifice herself here, or she can live. If Miranda survives, she and what's left of Cerberus are working under Hackett. Cerberus is now humanity's STG in truth and Miranda is integrated into the larger community.

Taking the sword for Shepard could be really emotional.

I like.

[LanceSolous13]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus will never operate again, at least under that name. It's stained, tainted, a shadow of it's former self. The Cerberus that Miranda wanted is not the one on the public's mind and it never will be.

She can always help create something else, something more...easily digested by the public.

If we're picking names from ancient beasts why not steal one from Norse Mythology?

I jest of course, but it does sort of make me chuckle at how much is taken from Greek Mythology.

Hence why I think a Roman name would be better as the Romans succeeded the Greeks, as Miranda's Co will succeede Cerberus.

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

jtav wrote...

Perhaps it's all for the best that Commander Shepard is usually dead. The galaxy will never let him be. If Fate is kind however, Miranda might be seen with a man who looks remarkably like him on some distant planet.

If he's dead, his symbol is whatever those with power want it to be.

Alive, he can use his status to push for changes he wants to see.

Ever hear of Pat Tillman? 

He was a very well learned, intelligent, and incredibly insightful person with an advanced university degree with a double major in Marketing and Philosophy/Foreign Cultural Studies with a 3.9 gpa. He was an atheist, a freethinker, and a believer in man's better nature and compassion to make a better world.

He was also a very talented athlete and hero to many, including myself in my younger years, and he was renowned among the NFL as an up-and-coming star who, despite his small stature, was known as an incredibly ferocious and determined linebacker.

In 2002, after the September 11th attacks, Tillman, who was morally troubled by the actions and the people who committed them, turned down a multi-million dollar contract for the Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the United States Army, eventually becoming a member of the elite Army Rangers in 2002.

In late April of 2004, he was killed by friendly fire (due to his outspoken belief against the Iraq War and the actions of senior military and political leaders, some believe this was an inside job). The Army was found to have also covered up details of Corporal Tillman's death, even lying to his mother about how her son had been killed.

He was then lauded by the conservative media as a "god-fearing man who stood for the Christian, conservative values of America against the evils of Islam"  and was essentially turned into a Right-wing poster boy.

Corporal Tillman had never once voted for the Republican party, called the 2003 Invasion of Iraq 'Illegal as all Hell" and had reservations about President Bush. He was morally troubled by what he saw in the Middle East as a parallel to the new religious right movement that was, and is, growing back in here in the United States.

That is what would happen to Commander Shepard should he die. Yet another reason for him to live.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 04 août 2012 - 09:37 .

[jtav]

Sanctuary was active. There was a unique enemy in the Pariah. TIM's ability to control Shep was introduced. Henry interacted with facility staff via loudspeaker. There was a choice between getting Henry and shutting the facility down. Miranda's role was worse--she'd been captured a caged--but the mission itself sounds better.