82204 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

LanceSolous13 wrote...
And, it was the catfight scene between Ashley and Liara. I've never seen that scene before. Probably because Ashley dies on Virmire and the catfight scene would happen post-Virmire for whatever reason.

Edit: AFAIK?

As Far As I Know.

As for the Ashley/Liara scene, you're talking about the one where Ashley's derisive to her, or the romance conflict scene. Hmm.....I seem to remember getting both before Virmire.

[flemm]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Edit: AFAIK?

I remember the first few times I saw this abbreviation I had a wtf? reaction as well

It still looks weird to me, even though I know what it means.

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
And, it was the catfight scene between Ashley and Liara. I've never seen that scene before. Probably because Ashley dies on Virmire and the catfight scene would happen post-Virmire for whatever reason.

Edit: AFAIK?

As Far As I Know.

As for the Ashley/Liara scene, you're talking about the one where Ashley's derisive to her, or the romance conflict scene. Hmm.....I seem to remember getting both before Virmire.

I kept Ashley alive and forced myself to romance both them to get that scene. Ashley is such a **** in that scene. And people say Miranda is a dirty ****. That playthrough I also kept Ashley alive to import her to ME3, in the hopes a fight of some kind would come from Miranda or Ashley. Minus her derisive comments about Miranda that only further cemented my opinion of her (and her fate), I was sorely disappointed. Tali did have a nice, snide comment for Ashley when she commented about joining Shepard again. 

[jtav]

Regarding the death scene, it really is extraordinarily well done. I just don't like the stuff surrounding it that turns her into "poor, tragic Miranda." The irony is that I find Miranda in LOTSB and ME3 much more unsympathetic than previously. I am at a loss as to why anyone would want to date someone who treats partners so poorly, including Shepard. ME2 Miranda goes the extra mile for Jacob and presents as a mostly healthy woman despite her insecurity. ME3 Miranda falls apart of her boyfriend dumps her, while simultaneously keeping unnecessary secrets.

Someday I'll get over this.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Someday I'll get over this.

It's important not to dwell on it too much. The idea wasn't for you to enjoy it.

Focus more on the Miranda you like and care about, and don't let the rest of it get you down.

Modifié par flemm, 08 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[jtav]

Funny thing? I enjoy the death scene immensely, especially romanced. It's the stuff before it that angers me. And it's too subtle for me to believe they deliberately made her unsympathetic.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 And it's too subtle for me to believe they deliberately made her unsympathetic.

Not exactly, no. It's more that a significant chunk of the game is intended to make an ideological/moralistic point (some of it with religious imagery as well). And Miranda is part of that part of the game. The whole thing kind of falls flat, and those parts of the game aren't very good. But that is why they are what they are.

It's why, imo, people do not really connect with significant chunks of the game: you cannot really connect with those areas of the game unless you are in tune with the ideology that is defining it.

It's also why the Genophage arc is so much better, and everybody likes it. The sensibility is different. There are some of the same themes (of salvation, for example), but they are presented differently. In these areas, the game hasn't already decided what you should think, or what you should care about, or what you should feel.

So, there is more room for the player to connect with them.

Modifié par flemm, 08 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
 And it's too subtle for me to believe they deliberately made her unsympathetic.

Not exactly, no. It's more that a significant chunk of the game is intended to make an ideological/moralistic point (some of it with religious imagery as well). And Miranda is part of that part of the game. The whole thing kind of falls flat, and those parts of the game aren't very good. But that is why they are what they are.

It's why, imo, people do not really connect with significant chunks of the game: you cannot really connect with those areas of the game unless you are in tune with the ideology that is defining it.

It's also why the Genophage arc is so much better, and everybody likes it. The sensibility is different. There are some of the same themes (of salvation, for example), but they are presented differently. In these areas, the game hasn't already decided what you should think, or what you should care about, or what you should feel.

So, there is more room for the player to connect with them.

Same with Rannoch as well. There's really no chance anywhere else in ME3 to give a differing opinion on anything. The game feels tailored to the exclusively paragon, pro-alliance players. 

[jtav]

It's not so much "Paragon" as "Normal is good. Being exceptional (if you aren't the hero) is bad. Every woman, even the most successful, secretly craves a family. Science is to be viewed with suspicion. People can be easily demarcated into good and bad."

[flemm]

It's also why, imo, outside of a few (happily very prominent) missions, ME3 is such a sad and dreary place.

ME2 was supposed to be the dark installment of the trilogy, but actually its intellectual and cultural environment are much healthier. In the beginning, you are born (Lazarus). In the end, you die (it's a Suicide Mission). In between, you are free.

Not completely (nobody is ever completely free). But you think what you want, you love who you want, you argue if you want. You don't always think alike or get along. But you can still live on the same ship. You can still fight together.

That's more like the type of world I would want to live in.

ME1 was about discovery, ME2 was about diversity.

ME3 wants to be about salvation. But there is no salvation to be had from attempting to impose one's own personal morality on the world (even a fictional one). 

That's largely what happened in significant chunks of this game. And that is why they are not very good.

Modifié par flemm, 08 août 2012 - 03:50 .

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

It's not so much "Paragon" as "Normal is good. Being exceptional (if you aren't the hero) is bad. Every woman, even the most successful, secretly craves a family. Science is to be viewed with suspicion. People can be easily demarcated into good and bad."

One question I would ask of Bioware is to define good and bad in their game. The one issue I have with the paragon/renegade system is that they make one a "yay, everyone lives!" and the other a "Hah, everyone dies!"
They don't really get you to think about the consequences of the actions that you take in the game. I can think of rational and completely logical reasons to accept and understand what happened at Sanctuary and not be disurbed by it. I don't agree with it though. Just the same as I can see and understand what the Reapers are and what they are doing, and why they are doing what they are doing, but I can also be repulsed by there actions and live confidant that my decision to eradicate the reapers will make this galaxy a better one in the long run.

I would say that Miranda would like a family, or someone to love and share her life with like Shepard. He is the first person that she really connects with on a human level, and a romantic one. It's really her first meaningful romantic relationship. But that's not to say she doesn't find meaning in her work. Don't make want for a human connection and want of making a better future for the galaxy and humanity mutually exclusive. 

Alas people like Ashley Williams, the Citadel Council, etc. are the people who discourage science. The one thing that strikes me from the beginning of both ME2 and ME3, is just a sudden disconnect from the in-game science and physics of the universe as given by the codex. 

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

It's not so much "Paragon" as "Normal is good. Being exceptional (if you aren't the hero) is bad. Every woman, even the most successful, secretly craves a family. Science is to be viewed with suspicion. People can be easily demarcated into good and bad."

The game is full of extraordinary people, but at the end of the day they're all human or alien. But they aren't normal. Normality is a falsehood created by society. Miranda is not normal, but she is human.

People are driven by by base wants. The need to feel accepted is one of them. This is not art, this is science. It is not far fetched to believe that at the end of the day even people with extraordinary talent want things as simple as a parnter.

True mistreatment of women in art comes from a inspired hatred of them to succeed or to be members of society. This is most prevelant in things from many years ago. Sometimes however you see it even today. One of the biggest debates about misogyny I've ever seen stemmed from Lar von Trier's Antichrist. Charlotte Gainsbourg does something on screen to herself that would make even the most hardened fans of gore gringe. 

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

It's also why, imo, outside of a few (happily very prominent) missions, ME3 is such a sad and dreary place.

ME2 was supposed to be the dark installment of the trilogy, but actually its intellectual and cultural environment are much healthier. In the beginning, you are born (Lazarus). In the end, you die (it's a Suicide Mission). In between, you are free.

Not completely (nobody is ever completely free). But you think what you want, you love who you want, you argue if you want. You don't always think alike or get along. But you can still live on the same ship. You can still fight together.

Very much agree that it feels like a straightjacket been put on every aspect of the ME3 story.
I certainly don't take Miranda's content outside of the romance seriously as it is a simplistic hatchet job to portray her as a tragic sacrifice.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

It's not so much "Paragon" as "Normal is good. Being exceptional (if you aren't the hero) is bad. Every woman, even the most successful, secretly craves a family. Science is to be viewed with suspicion. People can be easily demarcated into good and bad."

Basically it's a very conservative idea of family values being the center of the moral universe, but you're right of course about the anti-science, anti-intellectual vibe.

Which isn't to say that family, for example, is not important. Of course it is important. But the reactionary impulse always goes too far. It is important, but it is not an absolute, and it is not the only thing that is important.

I think it's no coincidence that the more progressive-thinking writers, the ones with an interest in science fiction in the speculative sense, focused on the prominent parts of the game involving mostly aliens (Genophage, Rannoch).

It's because the ideologically conservative "message" was intended to be conveyed mostly in the content involving human beings.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

It's not so much "Paragon" as "Normal is good. Being exceptional (if you aren't the hero) is bad. Every woman, even the most successful, secretly craves a family. Science is to be viewed with suspicion. People can be easily demarcated into good and bad."

Basically it's a very conservative idea of family values being the center of the moral universe, but you're right of course about the anti-science, anti-intellectual vibe.

Which isn't to say that family, for example, is not important. Of course it is important. But the reactionary impulse always goes too far. It is important, but it is not an absolute, and it is not the only thing that is important.

I think it's no coincidence that the more progressive-thinking writers, the ones with an interest in science fiction in the speculative sense, focused on the prominent parts of the game involving mostly aliens (Genophage, Rannoch).

It's because the ideologically conservative "message" was intended to be conveyed mostly in the content involving human beings.

I'm in no way conservative, but I do appreaciate levity applied to certain characters. I have no issue with Miranda wanting a family, the difference is exactely what you've pointd out, it just goes too damn far.

It's the entire focus of her arc in ME3. That's the issue.

Basic wants and needs are not conservative idealolgy at work, sidelining other traits and making it the only applicable concept behind a once complex character is.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm in no way conservative, but I do appreaciate levity applied to certain characters. I have no issue with Miranda wanting a family, the difference is exactely what you've pointd out, it just goes too damn far.

It's the entire focus of her arc in ME3. That's the issue.

Basic wants and needs are not conservative idealolgy at work, sidelining other traits and making it the only applicable concept behind a once complex character is.

Agreed. 

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Finish LotSB but don't invite Liara to the Normandy until you finished the SM.

Interesting. I never thought of it like that. But for some reason it all feels better Post SM. It's nice to have a huge Epilogue, though it's awkward standing there at the SB Base after defeating the SB, then seeing Liara Greeting you as if you left for some time. How the hell did BW want to construct the DLC?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 08 août 2012 - 04:53 .

[jtav]

No problems with Miranda loving her sister and wanting a family. Just the hints that she's not complete without it and her accomplishments are a compensation. And dying if her boyfriend of a few months dumps her.

Thank God for slides and emails..

[Taboo]

I've always been sympathetic to Miranda's character, that didn't diminish in ME3. I prefer outsider over others in stories. They always have a reason for being that way, and most of the time it's due to something in their past.

Making sympathetic characters can be difficult to do though. One of the biggest criticisms I've seen of A Clockwork Orange (the film anyway) is that it attempts to make Alex into a sympathetic character. He's a vile human being, but the thing to note is not that he is mistreated but that the core of the situation stems from either sociopathic or psychopathic behavior ( I would argue the latter, as he becomes upset and shows emotion). The film plays off of his mistreatment to make you feel for him. At no point is he made sympathetic before this.

Miranda differs from this as her character was easy to sympathize with before we learned of the other content. That's why it doesn't bother me as much as it does other people here. Making it the focus however, is an issue and I'm hoping it's addressed at some point.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 08 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
 Making it the focus however, is an issue and I'm hoping it's addressed at some point.

As am I. Until then, I'm not going to let the obvious problems with it bother me too much.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Three Miris?!....<3:wub:<3:wub:

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 08 août 2012 - 07:10 .

[Taboo]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Three Miri's?!....<3:wub:<3:wub:

It's a frame by frame...

Those are used in comparitive shot analysis...

*cough* 

You can use it to pick up certain aspects of the scene. 

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Taboo-XX wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Three Miris?!....<3:wub:<3:wub:

It's a frame by frame...

Those are used in comparitive shot analysis...

*cough* 

You can use it to pick up certain aspects of the scene. 

I know. I still see three Miris: The Biotic Vixen X 3

Shepard: *Drunk* Now how about I take you to bed Miri? Allll THREE of ya!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 08 août 2012 - 07:13 .

[jtav]

Let me put it this way: if Miranda actually appears in a speaking role in future DLC, I will write a oneshot where she and Shep get married and have a baby.

[Taboo]

Seeing as three shots (I think) puts Shepard on the floor, I don't think you'll be in any shape to do much of anything.

You'll either be buzzed or blind.

Or passed out.